Does Construction Take Too Long to Complete in This City?

[drum118]

As to the photo of the road being saw cut, not everyone works for the company doing it.

You have the sub contractor doing the work with supervision, the contractor who responsible for the contract, City personnel from various departments and the company who will be doing the work once the saw cutting is done. They are all making sure it been cut right, otherwise it will have to be done again with delay taking place.

As for the comment "Fact is we pay too many people too much to do to little", that is very true by having one wage rate for everyone doing the same work. From my experience of having different rates for the same position in non union companies pays dividends for everyone. The person who is a slacker will get the low rate will the person who is busting their ass it getting top dollar. The slacker has a choice of been better at their job to earn more money, stay at the same rate or looks for another company that will pay them more for their poor skills. The company knows who the best workers are and can rely on and willing to give the worker more hours if they want it as well knowing work will be done on time or ahead of schedule.

I have seen good workers come into union companies become slackers as they are not willing to do all the work themselves while the other people sit around and watch them do their work for them. At the same time, some union companies have a good workforce of the same quality of getting work done on time and it depends on the company and staff of that company.

Some fields lack the manpower as there is no training program or people decide to go out on their own after been train.

Starting up your own business cost money and it will take years to get to a level before you can expand. You need the staff to do it also. You must be prepare to deal with customers who are slow in paying you as well trying to screw you for various reasons. Banks wants the shirt off your back in helping you. You must plan what you are going to do during downturn in the market, higher material and wage cost as well other items.

 

[typezed]

At least some people around here are consistent in their scorn for those they think lesser than them. It was stated above that long development processes can be and are as much delayed by design, study and approvals as by the actual construction. Could it be too much time in meetings, twelve people sitting around as one person talks, too much fiddling on Twitter and Facebook and forums like Urban Toronto for people who sit at computers all day, that the one person shoveling while six people watch dynamic can be replicated in offices just as much as on the ground?

You can look at a specific moment and say too many people on the job, everything too padded and inefficient, or you could look at wider society and see plenty of people with no productive work or futures but lots of things that need doing, like building more public transit or keeping the streets clean and the parks maintained. But we sometimes have trouble getting those things done.

 

[cplchanb]

Toronto's construction speed isn't that bad, especially office towers and condos. Public projects are much slower but it isn't outrageous compared to other western cities. What is really slow is the time spent in design/EA etc. It seems to take forever to just get the shovels in the ground. That being said, the government should realize by speeding up construction speed by careful planning and simplified design etc, you can actually save a lot of money...

Talking about China, it isn't all that fast. It really depends on the scale of the project and the location. Some places have more funding from the central government thus faster. Here are some examples I know, they vary greatly:
* Beijing subway line 4 (28km, mostly underground): 2003-2009, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 1 (46km all elevated): 2001-2004, 3 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 2 (7km underground): 2008-2012, 4 years.
* Hangzhou metro line 1 (50km mostly underground): 2007-2013, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 3 (30km, mostly underground): 2008-2012, 4 years. [Almost 2 TBMs per every 2 to 3 stations]
* Tianjin Railway Station renovation (also adding a giant underground complex containing 3 subway lines): 2006-2012, 6 years (station closed for 2 years).

.

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Don't forget the Beijing to Shanghai hsr..
Design and built in under 10 years...with major construction from 08-11
1200 kms.....sure they used cheap labor and safety standards isn't on "par" with n a
But if we were to do the same thing I bet it won't be done until our grandkids are born and we're done rotting in the ground. Just saying......

 

[nfitz]

Like this image. One guy guiding the wet saw and another assisting. Surely the rest of this bunch standing around could be working elsewhere.

Most workers on site are working for a private company driven by profit. It's not conceivable that they would simply be standing around for no reason.

When I'm on Site, typically I see a lot of people standing around at times. Typically they are waiting for something that has to happen first. The arrival of concrete (stuck in traffic). The arrival of equipment (stuck in traffic). The separately contracted cutting company to finish their cut. The arrival of trucks to haul away material (stuck in traffic). Someone to come and repair the broken equipment (which is typically old and poorly maintained, because you aren't the low-bidder by having new equipment).

 

[silvercity]

I don't know what you try to prove here.
A cold fact is shanghai built 14 subway lines and 330 stations in 20 years (1993-2014). For Toronto to achieve that it will require 200 years.
I suggest you also check the hongqiao airport transit hub project which included airport, subways, bus stations, high speed trains and a lot more ，a project several times the scale of Union station and it took 4 years to finish. The 200m island airport tunnel took almost as much time.

Don't forget the Beijing to Shanghai hsr..
Design and built in under 10 years...with major construction from 08-11
1200 kms.....sure they used cheap labor and safety standards isn't on "par" with n a
But if we were to do the same thing I bet it won't be done until our grandkids are born and we're done rotting in the ground. Just saying......

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree Toronto public projects are at snail speed. It's ridiculous they are saying DRL would take 17 years! How many 17 years does one person have? Every time I want to rant by thinking about how slow projects are moving. I was just saying if you compare only construction time of a new project alone, it wasn't all that bad. Here's a summary what I think are main contributors to slow construction here in Toronto. (sorry it becomes a rant in the last few points)


1. Real *Construction* speed of most public projects in Toronto is acceptable (excluding renovation projects etc).
Like I said, if you compare construction speed of an average project (more specifically subway here), Toronto isn't all that slow. The construction of an average mostly underground subway in China takes about 5 years, regardless of the length. Here in Toronto it'll probably take like 6 - 7 years to build. But it's still in the same league. This isn't the main factor for the apparent slow progress. Compare Toronto's Spadina extension with New York City's 2nd Ave subway which took 8 years already and will take another 2 years..

2. What matters is the number of parallel projects and scheduling.
It is the intensity that makes China's progress appear much faster - most big cities have 2 or more subways under construction AT THE SAME TIME with 2 or more subways being designed / studied. If each line takes 5 years to build and 3 years to design/study, that means at least 4 LINES EVERY DECADE. It's an efficient pipeline. At Toronto's current speed - 3 years to debate (if lucky), 2 years to design and 5 years to construct, even with THE SAME construction speed, it still costs 10+ years to finish a subway line (in the extremely optimistic world). That translates to 4 lines in 40 years.. again with the same construction speed. Shanghai's speed was even faster than what I said, they have 3 or 4 projects in the pipeline at a time, not 2. That's how they achieved 330 stations and 14 lines in 20 years.

3. Won't build until it breaks.
This is the general mentality of the western world. Nothing will be built until something is seriously broken. Sadly, some broken things are not easily seen or measurable - like the cost of gridlocks on roads. In developing countries however, there are more momentum and new infrastructure is welcomed and regarded as stimulus for growth so even a subway to nowhere are mostly accepted. This is just like when NYC built its 7 subway line into Queens which at the time was mostly undeveloped land. The attitude towards public infrastructure just changed.

4. Lack of funding and politics.
Another reason Toronto cannot have 4 projects in the pipeline is because of funding. China concentrates investments in big cities and provincial capitals and the government knows investing in central cities like Shanghai can yield a much higher return to the economy overall. It's like Shanghai's subways are of "national interests".. of course they are built fast. Back to Ontario, if the provincial or federal governments concentrate a lot of its investments in Toronto, I believe DRL, GO RER etc would be much faster we as well, but there would be riots in other parts of the province. This is a whole other discussion about investment allocation in different places.

5. Be utilitarian if you don't have the money or time.
If you ever to visit Shanghai or Beijing or any city in China, you will find the subway stations are mostly utilitarian - but clean, bright & functional. This is true for Japan as well. For Shanghai, they don't have fancy structures or super grand entrances etc. But they do have platform screen doors and automatic train control (even the old line 1 from 1980s). Compare that with Union. I don't really like the rain shed of Union - the central glass structure is pretty but completely unnecessary. It seems really complex to build and hard to maintain as well. The cost of that rain shed is probably enough for a simpler design to cover the whole length of the platforms.

6. Close things down when you have to!
Again, Union revitalization. Like I said in an earlier post, if Union was closed for 2 years and a temporary station was built and construction was at full steam, it was probably already finished. Instead we get a project dragging for almost a decade with commuters having to go through a war zone every single day. Same thing for Dufferin station renovation. Just close the damn station down for a year... it'll probably be finished in one year rather than three for this simple renovation... Also you save a lot of money by shortening construction cycles..

7. Choose your design wisely.
Like I said in 5 and 6, design affects how fast things can get built. Why the heck do you want to build Spadina and Scarborough extensions UNDERGROUND? Those are perfect places for elevated or at-grade tracks. It's done all over the world - underground subways in the city centre and grade-separated elevated or at-grade tracks in suburbs. Oh also, why the heck do you build a new subway to scarborough anyway? It is mind-boggling for me to understand the Scarborough subway plan. Is it really that hard to renovate the SRT and use new Mark II trains like the ones used extensively in Vancouver, Beijing and Kuala Lumpur? The technology that SRT uses is a proven technology used around the world now! You would get a newly renovated SRT with modern trains and the current 6 stations with funds to extend further, in 3 years. But now what you have is $3 billion ALL UNDERGROUND, new subway with ONLY 3 STATIONS in 10 YEARS! How dumb is that?

PS. I know all HSR-related projects in China were super fast. Beijing-Shanghai HSR and all stations along the line only took 3 to 4 years to finish. I know that. But those are HSR projects, heavy investments from central government. I don't think HSR projects should be comparable here. If you look at other projects individually (especially how subways were built in China), you get a clearer picture.

 

[salsa]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree Toronto public projects are at snail speed. It's ridiculous they are saying DRL would take 17 years! How many 17 years does one person have? Every time I want to rant by thinking about how slow projects are moving. I was just saying if you compare only construction time of a new project alone, it wasn't all that bad.

The only person who says the DRL would take 17 years is John Tory. The actual number is more like 12 years according to the chief planned, although even that's too slow.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why don't we get prisoner or prisoner-of-war labour to do the digging or dangerous work, like they do in some totalitarian countries? Let them be "re-educated" to work hard. Unfortunately, they'll need more guards to watch over them. Which Dear Leader would propose that we do that?

 

[ksun]

^ "reeducate" ceased to exist since 1980s so get over it already.

 

[ksun]

The only person who says the DRL would take 17 years is John Tory. The actual number is more like 12 years according to the chief planned, although even that's too slow.

Why can't we learn from the UAE and bring foreign workers to get work done? I don't mean to pay them $5 a hour to work 18 hours a day with in rights but something reasonable and humane work conditions both we and them are happy with but nowhere near what our union worker demand. It will cost much less money and time. Saves taxpayers billions.

12 years? Maybe, but it takes 5 years to made a decision and another five on EA so we won't see it before 2035 realistically.

 

[silvercity]

Why can't we learn from the UAE and bring foreign workers to get work done? I don't mean to pay them $5 a hour to work 18 hours a day with in rights but something reasonable and humane work conditions both we and them are happy with but nowhere near what our union worker demand. It will cost much less money and time. Saves taxpayers billions.

12 years? Maybe, but it takes 5 years to made a decision and another five on EA so we won't see it before 2035 realistically.

I don't think it matters that much as to who builds it. Private companies build these pojects and they have to be efficient and competitive. Vancouver built its Canada line with 2/3 of the route underground in 5 years using PPP. And the mostly elevated evergreen line is going to be delivered after 3 years of construction. It can be done fast with Canadian labour. But your last bit is right on the point, repeated EA, review, consultation, design, and political debate and poor planning will likely drag the project to multiple decades if not longer.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't think it matters that much as to who builds it. Private companies build these pojects and they have to be efficient and competitive. Vancouver built its Canada line with 2/3 of the route underground in 5 years using PPP. And the mostly elevated evergreen line is going to be delivered after 3 years of construction. It can be done fast with Canadian labour. But your last bit is right on the point, repeated EA, review, consultation, design, and political debate and poor planning will likely drag the project to multiple decades if not longer.

Proving that your point number 7 is correct. Not only is the EA process exceedingly long, it often makes the wrong decisions. Maybe that is the point of stretching out the EA - that way all the objectors will just get tired of opposing and give up. However, if a new candidate comes along who represents their objections, then the whole process grinds to a halt again.

7. Choose your design wisely.
Like I said in 5 and 6, design affects how fast things can get built. Why the heck do you want to build Spadina and Scarborough extensions UNDERGROUND? Those are perfect places for elevated or at-grade tracks. It's done all over the world - underground subways in the city centre and grade-separated elevated or at-grade tracks in suburbs. Oh also, why the heck do you build a new subway to scarborough anyway? It is mind-boggling for me to understand the Scarborough subway plan. Is it really that hard to renovate the SRT and use new Mark II trains like the ones used extensively in Vancouver, Beijing and Kuala Lumpur? The technology that SRT uses is a proven technology used around the world now! You would get a newly renovated SRT with modern trains and the current 6 stations with funds to extend further, in 3 years. But now what you have is $3 billion ALL UNDERGROUND, new subway with ONLY 3 STATIONS in 10 YEARS! How dumb is that?

 

[BurlOak]

6. Close things down when you have to!
Again, Union revitalization. Like I said in an earlier post, if Union was closed for 2 years and a temporary station was built and construction was at full steam, it was probably already finished. Instead we get a project dragging for almost a decade with commuters having to go through a war zone every single day. Same thing for Dufferin station renovation. Just close the damn station down for a year... it'll probably be finished in one year rather than three for this simple renovation... Also you save a lot of money by shortening construction cycles..

I think there is a major disconnect in what planner think of construction disruptions and what people want. The Westminster Bridge over 401 (near London) was replaced this year. At first they wanted to keep the bridge open during construction, and take 2 years to replace the bridge. Luckily, they asked the locals - who very much preferred closing the road for 2 months and replacing it in that time.
Look at the disruption that tunnelled subways cause. I wonder if people would prefer full closures for a construction duration half as long, over the current major disruption for twice as long. Even with current tunnelling, Keele still gets completely closed at Finch.

 

[wopchop]

Why can't we learn from the UAE and bring foreign workers to get work done? I don't mean to pay them $5 a hour to work 18 hours a day with in rights but something reasonable and humane work conditions both we and them are happy with but nowhere near what our union worker demand. It will cost much less money and time. Saves taxpayers billions.

12 years? Maybe, but it takes 5 years to made a decision and another five on EA so we won't see it before 2035 realistically.

We already already do, and it again shows how little you know about construction. A huge percentage of the construction workforce is made up of immigrants - both skilled and unskilled. A large percentage of the industry is also not unionized, and unfortunately, many of those workers are not properly trained. While not always effective, the union at least requires that their workers be trained, which is great. I fully admit that this doesn't mean that all union workers are "skilled" but at least they providing the training.

Let's look at the residential condo construction industry, which has the loosest labour regulations, and also has a huge non-unionized workforce. You only have to look at a PDI for a recently built condo to see the effects of unskilled labour on quality workmanship. Low bidder companies often hire "skilled" workers to do jobs that they are not qualified for, and you end up with crappy results.

The lack of skilled workers is one of the biggest problem. I'm not saying that they need to be unionized (I'm not) but they need to be trained properly. Bringing in a bunch of people doesn't solve that issue.


The saddest thing about your posts is that you are trying to make this complicated problem into a simple one. It's not. There are many interconnected reasons why construction takes a long time, and there is no simple solution that will make construction go faster. The fact is, all construction companies are interested in making profit, and for typical CCDC-2 stipulated price contracts, taking a long time does not increase their profit at all. Some workers may want to stretch out work (definitely not the majority) but if this was really the cause of a widespread problem, then every construction company in Ontario would not be profitable and out of business.


Also, construction workers are paid what the market is willing to bear. You, and a lot of other people, might look down on us as useless lazy overpaid turds, but the very fact that all those people that look down their noses at us do not value our jobs or want to do our jobs, creates the very situation where we are paid high wages. Lack of supply creates high demand. So thanks, I guess.

 

[wopchop]

I don't think it matters that much as to who builds it. Private companies build these pojects and they have to be efficient and competitive. Vancouver built its Canada line with 2/3 of the route underground in 5 years using PPP. And the mostly elevated evergreen line is going to be delivered after 3 years of construction. It can be done fast with Canadian labour. But your last bit is right on the point, repeated EA, review, consultation, design, and political debate and poor planning will likely drag the project to multiple decades if not longer.

Exactly. The architecture, engineering & construction industry already knows what is actually causing huge delays, and that issue is design coordination. When RFI responses take 2 - 6 weeks, which is a major cause of delays in the field, they know that the design & planning stage of projects need to shape up. That's why the industry is investing so heavily in BIM (3D building information modelling), so that these issues can be seen ahead of time, and eliminated before labour in the field reaches them and is forced to stop.

 

[nfitz]

Why can't we learn from the UAE and bring foreign workers to get work done?

Ignoring that it's already done ... how does this speed up construction? UAE construction is notorious for being late.