Does Construction Take Too Long to Complete in This City?

[TrickyRicky]

I can't comment on large scale projects but at the small scale the time issue here I feel is man-power. We don't work long hours and the amount of work per worker is greater. If you were renovating a bathroom here one or two guys would work at it until it's done, while at the same time juggling the fact that 5 other people are desperately trying to get them on other job. In Asia 12 guys would be crammed into that same space and they would complete the job in a day or two. Then they would all sit around smoking all day until the next job comes along.

I don't know how my anecdotal observation reflects things at larger scales, but I see a lot of machinery and equipment just hanging around on empty construction sites in this city.

 

[Johnny Au]

Labour laws may make construction slower, but at least here, we don't have people being paid rice bowls to construct subways.

Let's look at UAE and Qatar, where entire metropolises are built from scratch in under a decade. Those two countries use migrant labour and pay them barely anything. No wonder why Qatar is one of the richest countries in the world per capita (they exclude migrant workers from their demographics data to inflate their wealth per capita).

 

[Admiral Beez]

Just look at all the folks leaning and standing around. No wonder it takes so long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYfGwyc3Cc

Assuming most projects suffer the same, perhaps this time for this http://www.railway-technology.com/f...transforming-onsite-time-attendance-tracking/

It drives me crazy when I see lanes closed by cones with no one working.

 

[silvercity]

Toronto's construction speed isn't that bad, especially office towers and condos. Public projects are much slower but it isn't outrageous compared to other western cities. What is really slow is the time spent in design/EA etc. It seems to take forever to just get the shovels in the ground. That being said, the government should realize by speeding up construction speed by careful planning and simplified design etc, you can actually save a lot of money...

Talking about China, it isn't all that fast. It really depends on the scale of the project and the location. Some places have more funding from the central government thus faster. Here are some examples I know, they vary greatly:
* Beijing subway line 4 (28km, mostly underground): 2003-2009, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 1 (46km all elevated): 2001-2004, 3 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 2 (7km underground): 2008-2012, 4 years.
* Hangzhou metro line 1 (50km mostly underground): 2007-2013, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 3 (30km, mostly underground): 2008-2012, 4 years. [Almost 2 TBMs per every 2 to 3 stations]
* Tianjin Railway Station renovation (also adding a giant underground complex containing 3 subway lines): 2006-2012, 6 years (station closed for 2 years).

Speaking about Union station renovation, the last one (Tianjin Railway Station renovation) I think is somewhat comparable. The project included:
* two new road tunnels under the station
* an underground parking garage
* a bus terminal and underground bus platforms
* rebuilding of the elevated waiting area
* rebuilding of all platforms and rain sheds for HSR
* renovating of the old station building
* a large underground multi-modal transfer complex providing transfer to 3 subway lines.

Demolition of the old structures and platforms started in late 2006. The station was completely closed and a temporary station was constructed at a different location. The temporary station was extremely basic but it did the job. The new station reopened in summer 2008 in time for Beijing Olympics and the temporary station was then demolished. At the time of 2008 opening, all projects were done except for the underground transfer complex. It was one of the largest underground structure in China at the time. It took another 4 years to finish and opened with 3 subway lines in 2012.

Two points here:
1. Union revitalization would be much faster if it's closed completely for a year or two.
2. Underground structure is slow everywhere. So if Union was to have a new elevated waiting area above the tracks instead of digging deeper into the existing waiting room, it would probably be much faster as well. The new glass train shed is almost as big as a waiting area...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Just look at all the folks leaning and standing around. No wonder it takes so long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYfGwyc3Cc

Assuming most projects suffer the same, perhaps this time for this http://www.railway-technology.com/f...transforming-onsite-time-attendance-tracking/

View attachment 38592

It drives me crazy when I see lanes closed by cones with no one working

Seeing people standing around is frustrating, but often it is safer and more efficient than having everyone work.

For example, let's say there are three workers working on digging a hole. One worker is actually digging and two are standing around doing nothing. To the casual observer, having all three workers digging would be more efficient. But what they don't realize is that they may just be getting in each other's way by working at the same time. It's better to rotate workers who are digging so they don't get in each other's way and so everyone can take breaks from physical labor. Furthermore, worksites often need a safey person to make sure nobody is in immediate danger. For example, a worker may need to stand near the hole to ensure that a vehicle doesn't back into it and kill the people digging. If it's a larger site, you may need two or three people doing this job.

Now I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement. But people need to remember that things aren't as clear cut as they appear.

Note that I don't work in the industry. What I said above is how a contractor explained the situation to me.

 

[wopchop]

Some of the Top Reasons

1) Bad design coordination; RFI Issues from the field end up causing huge delays, as often there are 1 - 2 week response times.
2) Cash Flow; Many projects are scheduled to take a long time because the customer doesn't have the cash flow to pay it quickly.
3) Unrealistic Scheduling; Many schedules are simply overly optimistic and give the public unrealistic deadlines that could never be met.
4) Supplier / Contractor over-committment; many contractors or suppliers take on more work than they can realistically handle, leading to lower productivity or late deliveries.
5) Safety; you cannot schedule too many contractors in one area, as this overlap tends to cause accidents (and lower productivity) due to people being in each others way. This drags out schedules.
6) Manpower; despite the size of our construction industry, there are still critical manpower shortages in all the trades, technical staff and construction management.

 

[ksun]

^ such justification is so lame that u can't start to comment.
Let me ask this: while the workers in your example basically spend 1/3 of the time working, are they paid 1/3 the normal wage? Nope they are paid as if the dig for 8 hours while 5 hours they do nothing but stand there.

For the worker who stand by the hole watching traffic, do we need to pay him $40 an hour plus benefits? Why not hire some homeless guy who will love to make $11 minimum wage just doing that as it requires zero experience? Nope we pay union wages for people to do what an eight years old can do.

This is why everything is slow and expensive.

 

[wopchop]

^ such justification is so lame that u can't start to comment.
Let me ask this: while the workers in your example basically spend 1/3 of the time working, are they paid 1/3 the normal wage? Nope they are paid as if the dig for 8 hours while 5 hours they do nothing but stand there.

For the worker who stand by the hole watching traffic, do we need to pay him $40 an hour plus benefits? Why not hire some homeless guy who will love to make $11 minimum wage just doing that as it requires zero experience? Nope we pay union wages for people to do what an eight years old can do.

This is why everything is slow and expensive.

This is so overly simplistic that it is laughable and obvious that you have zero construction experience.

The majority of workers are not standing guard as safety spotters. Not even close. The cost that you are talking about is a drop in the bucket.

On a residential construction site, you would be lucky if you saw even 1 safety spotter.

 

[ksun]

Toronto's construction speed isn't that bad, especially office towers and condos. Public projects are much slower but it isn't outrageous compared to other western cities. What is really slow is the time spent in design/EA etc. It seems to take forever to just get the shovels in the ground. That being said, the government should realize by speeding up construction speed by careful planning and simplified design etc, you can actually save a lot of money...

Talking about China, it isn't all that fast. It really depends on the scale of the project and the location. Some places have more funding from the central government thus faster. Here are some examples I know, they vary greatly:
* Beijing subway line 4 (28km, mostly underground): 2003-2009, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 1 (46km all elevated): 2001-2004, 3 years.
* Tianjin metro line 9 phase 2 (7km underground): 2008-2012, 4 years.
* Hangzhou metro line 1 (50km mostly underground): 2007-2013, 6 years.
* Tianjin metro line 3 (30km, mostly underground): 2008-2012, 4 years. [Almost 2 TBMs per every 2 to 3 stations]
* Tianjin Railway Station renovation (also adding a giant underground complex containing 3 subway lines): 2006-2012, 6 years (station closed for 2 years).

Speaking about Union station renovation, the last one (Tianjin Railway Station renovation) I think is somewhat comparable. The project included:
* two new road tunnels under the station
* an underground parking garage
* a bus terminal and underground bus platforms
* rebuilding of the elevated waiting area
* rebuilding of all platforms and rain sheds for HSR
* renovating of the old station building
* a large underground multi-modal transfer complex providing transfer to 3 subway lines.

Demolition of the old structures and platforms started in late 2006. The station was completely closed and a temporary station was constructed at a different location. The temporary station was extremely basic but it did the job. The new station reopened in summer 2008 in time for Beijing Olympics and the temporary station was then demolished. At the time of 2008 opening, all projects were done except for the underground transfer complex. It was one of the largest underground structure in China at the time. It took another 4 years to finish and opened with 3 subway lines in 2012.

Two points here:
1. Union revitalization would be much faster if it's closed completely for a year or two.
2. Underground structure is slow everywhere. So if Union was to have a new elevated waiting area above the tracks instead of digging deeper into the existing waiting room, it would probably be much faster as well. The new glass train shed is almost as big as a waiting area...

I don't know what you try to prove here.
A cold fact is shanghai built 14 subway lines and 330 stations in 20 years (1993-2014). For Toronto to achieve that it will require 200 years.
I suggest you also check the hongqiao airport transit hub project which included airport, subways, bus stations, high speed trains and a lot more ，a project several times the scale of Union station and it took 4 years to finish. The 200m island airport tunnel took almost as much time.

 

[ksun]

This is so overly simplistic that it is laughable and obvious that you have zero construction experience.

The majority of workers are not standing guard as safety spotters. Not even close. The cost that you are talking about is a drop in the bucket.

On a residential construction site, you would be lucky if you saw even 1 safety spotter.

It was just an example based on what was described. Fact is we pay too many people too much to do to little.

 

[wopchop]

It was just an example based on what was described. Fact is we pay too many people too much to do to little.

Is that a fact? It sounds more like your opinion. What experience has led you to that opinion? A pedestrian passing by a construction site and seeing 0.1% of the construction process in the field?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Other "ancient" cities also have archaeological ruins to deal with. See link.

Some of which get incorporated in the stations, but which also delay the timelines.

See link.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Some of the Top Reasons

6) Manpower; despite the size of our construction industry, there are still critical manpower shortages in all the trades, technical staff and construction management.

I work for one of the largest construction products firms in the world, in product development and marketing and I know the above to be true. When touring the west Don Pam Am site the foremen told me directly that they can't find sufficient framers and other skilled trades, and were worried of hitting their deadlines.

That's why it annoys me when I see people leaning and standing around job sites, since somewhere in the city the skill or job that guy does is needed. The challenge with efficiently deploying labour is that each worker is employed by one company, so if his skills are needed at another company's job and he's idle at his own job, he can't go elsewhere. Perhaps we need to adjust the construction trade so that there is a general pool of labour for all jobs to pull from, with some sort of notice that a trade is idle waiting for their stage to begin, and could be sent elsewhere.

Like this image. One guy guiding the wet saw and another assisting. Surely the rest of this bunch standing around could be working elsewhere.

 

[rbt]

It was just an example based on what was described. Fact is we pay too many people too much to do to little.

Well then, with your knowledge you should clearly start a general contracting company and make huge profits for lower cost to your clients (including government) due to the massive increases in efficiency that you bring.

Start with small stuff like house interior remodelling (only costs a few thousand to get into this business). Won't take long to have massive bank backing you to move to much larger projects.

 

[gweed123]

Spadina started in 2009 I believe, so it will be 8 years of construction, which is pretty standard for a subway. 7-8 years is what it typically takes. Scarborough is supposed to take 7 years, 2016 - 2023. Sheppard took 8 years, 1994-2002.

Ottawa started construction on the Confederation Line in mid-2013, and the schedule says open by mid 2018, although it's more likely going to be late 2017, given how far ahead of schedule they are. Granted Ottawa's tunnel is shorter than Spadina, but it's also directly under downtown. However, the total construction length is way longer, with 13 stations total. Still, a 3 year construction timeline difference?