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Dion proposes Carbon Tax

When I was environment minister and listed greenhouse gases as toxic substances under Canada's Environmental Protection Act, the Conservative opposition questioned the very existence of climate change and claimed any regulation would destroy our economy. They even said, "Carbon dioxide is in babies' breath – how can you call babies' breath toxic?" They just don't get it.

Carbon dioxide is essential to life on this planet. Atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide have been far higher than today throughout most of the history of the planet, and during times of greater biodiversity. Dion does not get any of this. He believes it's toxic. In very large enough concentrations it is, of course, toxic; but then so is everything - including oxygen and pure water. That's pretty much the first rule of ecotoxicology. Presently, atmospheric carbon dioxide is nowhere near toxic levels. Dion clearly does not understand that humans exhale carbon dioxide, or that it is a product of living systems. If he's so concerned, maybe he can hold his breath.
 
Biofuels produce infrared absorbing gases, just not as much as the combustion of petroleum. Natural gas also produces less than the combustion of petroleum, but it will be taxed according to Dion. Biofuels will demand more land use, and both carbon dioxide and methane are emitted during the crop production cycle. The carbon tax is a fuel tax regardless of its selective application.

See, you're obviously intelligent. Why do you always play dumb on this point? The carbon dioxide to be taxed is only that which has been removed from the carbon cycle and is being reintroduced through human activity. This is why breathing is not taxable. No one is suggesting that we should try to eliminate carbon dioxide, but rather the release of fossilized carbon.

Businesses and individuals will still pay taxes, and such a proposed tax shift will be at best revenue neutral.

I didn't know you had inside info either. The only reason it might be 'at best' is because Harper/Flaherty have put the country into a perilous fiscal position. Don't try to pretend that the Liberals have not been a party of major tax cuts, when prudent.

So the purpose of sales taxes like the GST and the PST are actually aimed at reducing sales at stores? That is roughly what is being suggested by the application of a carbon tax: reduction of consumption.

Now you're catching on. Sales taxes reduce consumption and increase savings, which in Canada (for instance) are at catastrophically low levels. You think this is a bad thing?

What we have hear is a political party that wants to raise money by taxing fuel and driving up the price of energy so as to generate revenue. Carbon (dioxide) is the fashionable bad boy for taxation, and they plan on using contemporary worries as a means of sliding this one through. All they want to do is to add pressure to the economy to generate a response; they don't actually plan to do anything proactive.

Even so.... what's the big deal? We'd have to raise fuel taxes by tens of billions to approach having the highest level of fuel taxation in the world, and you can bet this isn't what Dion has in mind. And giving a price signal is usually very effective. Again, ask an economist--don't go by truthiness and what your gut tells you makes sense.

But to note, if the government wants to maintain revenue it will obviously have to maintain an absolute amount of revenue to pay for its functioning and services. In the long run, this means that a tax which is supposed to reduce the consumption of certain fuels is one that will inevitably reduce revenues as the consumption of that fuel drops (the intended effect). So in the end other forms of taxation, if reduced, will have to rise. To that end, there will not be a significant reduction in other forms of taxation.

Like plummeting cigarette taxes? Yes, your point is one that must be considered, but is more of a long term concern. If fuel consumption drops off to nothing, I think we can probably toast--it'll mean that some sort of sustainable alternative has finally been developed that can form a basis of the economy. Ie, one which does not require the utter destruction of vast swaths of the Canadian landscape.
 
^A very good question. It would appear that once taxes account for 50% of the at-pump fuel cost, the government will be dependent on the stuff.
 
See, you're obviously intelligent. Why do you always play dumb on this point? The carbon dioxide to be taxed is only that which has been removed from the carbon cycle and is being reintroduced through human activity. This is why breathing is not taxable. No one is suggesting that we should try to eliminate carbon dioxide, but rather the release of fossilized carbon.

Maybe you should consider taxing extra human beings? At the start of the twentieth century there were just over a billion of us, now there are over six-and-a-half.

The carbon dioxide removed eventually ends up back in the carbon cycle anyway, always has and always will. The actual issue is whether the tiny human addition of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere actually makes any difference, as virtually all carbon dioxide in released naturally.

I didn't know you had inside info either. The only reason it might be 'at best' is because Harper/Flaherty have put the country into a perilous fiscal position. Don't try to pretend that the Liberals have not been a party of major tax cuts, when prudent.

The present government is revenue neutral in that they are still bringing more revenue in than expenditures. If they find that they are sliding into deficit, they will first cut programs in an effort to balance the books. If Dion is elected, he will have to either raise revenues to fund his platform promises, or make no such promises. Deficits were tolerable in the past; these days it is bad politics to go into debt. The Liberals understand this (now).

Now you're catching on. Sales taxes reduce consumption and increase savings, which in Canada (for instance) are at catastrophically low levels. You think this is a bad thing?

You are not catching on. I have my suspicions that you were not around when the entire GST debate was taking place. I was. Needless to say, reduction in consumption was hardly one of the aims of the Mulroney government. The purpose of the GST is, as with all taxes, to raise government revenues. By your logic, the purpose of the income tax is to the reduce the desire for a high paying jobs.

Even so.... what's the big deal? We'd have to raise fuel taxes by tens of billions to approach having the highest level of fuel taxation in the world, and you can bet this isn't what Dion has in mind. And giving a price signal is usually very effective. Again, ask an economist--don't go by truthiness and what your gut tells you makes sense.

Just so you know, economists don't all think in lock-step. Your post appears to suggest this is so. The point I was making - and you appeared to miss - is that there will be no huge commensurate drop in other forms of taxation if a so-called carbon tax is added onto hydrocarbon products. The purpose of this tax is to generate revenues for government in a politically palatable manner. This is being done so by taking advantage of contemporary worries over carbon dioxide.

The taxes added don't indicate the actual price signal of the product at hand as all governments set their own levels of taxation.

Like plummeting cigarette taxes?

You appear to forget about the smuggling from lower tax zones.

Consumption of hydrocarbons will not be dropping off to nothing any time soon, which is why they are being targeted for revenue generation. As they are a necessity to the functioning of the entire economy, hydrocarbons can never be taxed in a such a significant manner so as to reduce other forms of taxation. Calling an addition to the fuel tax a "carbon tax" is politics, and is a means to making the government look like they are doing something about carbon dioxide emissions when all they are doing is cashing in on them.
 
This is a pointless discussion. Dion doesn't stand a chance of getting elected to PM. His own party will remove him within the next 24 months, especially after the Libs get trounced at the Nov 2009 election. He's already said that a GST increase may be considered, and now a Carton Tax. You don't win elections on promises of tax hikes.
 
Haha. It's amazing what Conservatives manage to talk themselves into. Hello, guys, you're down in the polls! Many of them show you guys behind the Liberals. I wouldn't say 32-30 polling averages mean that there's no chance of Dion becoming PM.
 
Hydrogen, regardless of the motivation of taxes, they do have certain effects. Even if the GST was introduced only to provide government revenues, it serves to make consumption less appealing in comparison to savings. Part of the problem in this country is that we have an incredibly backwards tax system. The capital gains tax is an excellent example of an incredibly ill-considered tax.

So, when it comes to governments wanting/needing to raise a certain amount of revenue, yes, governments basically determine that they need X billion and impose taxes to raise that amount. What governments should do, though, is use taxes that are economically efficient and not terribly regressive. The former should be done for economic reasons--inefficient taxes harm the economy more than necessary to raise the revenue. The latter is done for social justice...

Taxes such as capital gains, corporate income tax, and personal income tax are quite inefficient. Consumption taxes or value-added taxes are quite economically efficient. The latter can be regressive... this is why we have the GST rebate.

The GST is the best tax we have. Cutting it will go down as one of the biggest policy blunders of this decade.
 
Even if the GST was introduced only to provide government revenues, it serves to make consumption less appealing in comparison to savings.

I guess that would explain the higher present-day rates of consumer debt as compared to the time when the GST was originally introduced, wouldn't it?

If the purpose of the GST was to reduce consumption and increase savings, then it's an abysmal failure.
 
Haha. It's amazing what Conservatives manage to talk themselves into. Hello, guys, you're down in the polls! Many of them show you guys behind the Liberals. I wouldn't say 32-30 polling averages mean that there's no chance of Dion becoming PM.
I'm not Conservative, and voted Lib when both Creitien and Harper were PM. But, as John Manley said, when turning down the leadership bid, this is not the Liberal Party we once knew.

These guys are fragmented, destabilized and are at risk of losing the Quebec seats and many of their key Ontario seats. My own vote is pointless, as I live in Cabbagetown where even Idi Amin could win as a Liberal, but I'd still say that the Libs are in trouble, unless Dippers move to Lib enmasse, thus killing Layton.
 
But if the Liberals are collapsing, why don't any polls show it? Virtually every poll that has come out for months has shown the Liberals at or above their result last election. Incidentally, for all those hyper-confident Tories out there, virtually every poll has shown the Tories at or below their result last election.
 
But if the Liberals are collapsing, why don't any polls show it? Virtually every poll that has come out for months has shown the Liberals at or above their result last election. Incidentally, for all those hyper-confident Tories out there, virtually every poll has shown the Tories at or below their result last election.
Who cares what the polls say? I'd have to clarify, and say that the Liberals are not growing in support where in matters. Sure, in already safe ridings like in the GTA they're popular, but in Quebec? west of Ontario? In those areas, I'd say Dion is toast. There's a good article in Maclean's this week about the growing popularity of the Conservatives, and the reduction in the old feeling that the Liberals were the naturally governing party.

I do very much think that against a good Liberal leader (by which I mean, a very good politician, able to feel and direct the whims of the country), Harper wouldn't stand a chance. There's no way Harper could have beat Creitein, for example. Instead they've got this tool Dion who keeps talking about the freaking environment, and says little on health care, economy, taxation (besides raising them I suppose), terrorism, and the other core issues worrying Canadians.
 
Haha. Maclean's. That tabloid makes the Toronto Sun look like a serious journal. How the mighty have fallen.

I'd say the polls are a pretty good predictor of electoral results. Rather better, in fact, than "feelings".

Dion's biggest problem is that he abandoned his strength, the environment, which a huge number of Canadians, growing every day, care deeply about. It was his issue, it's the issue of the day, and he could have run with it. Unfortunately, he listened to all these Liberals who screamed "Oh no! We can't run an election on the environment! It's just one issue!" even though about four elections were fought entirely on health care. I agree that he hasn't been a very able politician, and a win, in many ways, will be in spite of the leader. The Liberals, with a better leader (I'm starting to think that Martin would probably be doing better had he stayed on), would almost certainly be in majority territory, considering Harper's unpopularity and scandals.
 
I guess that would explain the higher present-day rates of consumer debt as compared to the time when the GST was originally introduced, wouldn't it?

If the purpose of the GST was to reduce consumption and increase savings, then it's an abysmal failure.

Bah... things are a bit more complicated. Without the GST, consumption would have been even higher, most likely. I think the change in values hasn't helped. We've been raised on a steady diet of 'borrow-to-consume-without-a-plan-to-repay'.
 

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