salsa
Senior Member
Correct, but the subway won't be attracting any riders from park and ride Markhamites as was predicted by the phony ridership estimates.
|
|
|
Correct, but the subway won't be attracting any riders from park and ride Markhamites as was predicted by the phony ridership estimates.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It's at least every 15 minutes
nfitz
Superstar
Which (of the many) estimates are you referring to?
And why no park and riders from Markham? It's all of a 9-minute 5-km drive from Markham to Sheppard/McCowan where I assume there'd be a large park-and-ride facility. There's large park-and-ride usage at all the major subway termini - why do you think Line 2 would be any different? There's over 2,200 TTC parking spots at Warden and Kennedy stations - and I'd be shocked if none of those weren't currently driving from Markham!
Sorry, yes. 20 minutes is peak to Lincolnville. It's 15 minutes to Unionville.
Either way, I don't think that people are going to take a bus from Scarborough Centre or Sheppard/McCowan or Malvern to Agincourt station, hop on a service that only runs once every 15 minutes (and no plans to be any better during peak through 2025), and get off at Kennedy to finish their trip. A small percentage might stay on to go to Union - but I don't think that's very reflective of the existing ridership who is boarding the SRT at Scarborough Centre.
Last edited:
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That's the RER service. Did she say anything about SmartTrack?
nfitz
Superstar
I edited that comment away before you posted this after I checked the frequency. (and then I edited it again later to add the final paragraph).
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Would anyone from Markham want to park and ride at the SSE terminus? Fight their way through traffic to Sheppard & McCowan, then park to hop on a slow subway that stops at every Chester and Castle Frank along the Danforth to transfer at Yonge & Bloor and head to their final destination downtown?
No, they'll park and ride at Unionville. Exactly where, as you noted, GO RER will be providing them 15-minute service that is far faster and more comfortable than Line 2 would. And if these theoretical suburban riders need to head elsewhere on the TTC network that RER/SmartTrack won't take them to, they can always transfer at Kennedy.
All-day two-way service up to Unionville or, better still, Lincolnville will really demonstrate whether Warden and Kennedy get a significant number of Markhamites parking and riding. Complete conjecture, but my sneaking suspicion is that the majority of park-and-riders at those stations originate from the wealthier, more-likely-to-drive-than-take-the-bus regions of southern Scarborough along the lake. Cliffside, Cliffcrest and all that. My experience with family living in York Region is that if they need to head downtown via the subway, they park and ride at Don Mills.
nfitz
Superstar
If you were starting you trip at Unionville perhaps.
But why would someone who lives in Markham, 5 km up McCowan from Sheppard, drive 6 km north to Unionville, to catch a relatively infrequent train, and then change again at Kennedy.
Salsa claimed that none from Markham would drive to McCowan/Sheppard and park to get on subway. I think some will.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 7,416
- Reaction score
- 1,444
- Location
- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
And he's right because the GO train will be faster to Union.
wopchop
Building Toronto
Except not everyone is going to Union. If I remember correctly, it was less than 20% of the ridership.
nfitz
Superstar
Most people boarding at Scarbroough Centre aren't going to Union. When you ride the Danforth subway, surely you see the same thing I do. Many getting off long before Yonge. Some staying on at Yonge. Some getting off at Yonge heading north. And most who change to Yonge and gone south, having gotten off by Queen (Dundas seems very popular).
This is part of the reason that SmartTrack provides very little relief to Yonge-Bloor ... it takes people from too far east, and brings them too far south. I fear it might actually make the Bloor-Danforth busier, bringing more from Markham, who change to Danforth subway at relatively convenient Kennedy, and then travel to points along Bloor-Danforth, like UT.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 7,416
- Reaction score
- 1,444
- Location
- Downtown Toronto, Ontario
Oh, for sure, I agree with you. I'm just saying reality is the subway will take longer. That does not mean you are wrong about smart track. At this point however, it's either smart track or this.
nfitz
Superstar
Not if you have to wait an average of 7.5 minutes for a train, and then change trains at Kennedy, as opposed to having a one seat-ride.
No. We will have both RER and the Scarborough suwbay extension. And I wouldn't be surprised if the DRL isn't built at some point, because they'll never be able to extend the Yonge line otherwise.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Some will undoubtedly, regardless of what happens. But I think a majority of Markham commuters will use GO RER as opposed to taking the longer, less comfortable subway (which I will admit is likely cheaper, assuming that Tory's promises of TTC fare on SmartTrack do not pan out; if they do, then that point is moot anyways). Someone at McCowan & Steeles on the Markham side can travel two arterials to the west—a pretty short distance really—and board RER at Milliken Station instead, for a far faster ride south than driving to Sheppard & McCowan and boarding Line 2 would. 15 minutes isn't exactly particularly infrequent anyways.
Given even a small amount of effort put forth into TTC-GO fare integration, they would have minimal difficulty exiting at Kennedy and hopping on Line 2 (or the Crosstown) there if they needed to travel somewhere on those lines outside of the downtown core.
When we're spending over $10 billion to seriously upgrade GO into becoming a proper regional rail system, it only makes sense to encourage riders from the 905 to use RER rather than further crowd the 416's subway system. This isn't even a matter of north vs. south of Steeles fiefdoms, it's about ensuring that potential riders use the system which makes the most sense for them, and by and large riders outside of the City of Toronto itself will be far better served by using GO RER for as much of their journey as possible, then only transferring to TTC when necessary to complete a last leg of the journey. Same goes for riders from the outer 416 as well. If that commuter at McCowan & Steeles was on the south side of Steeles, they would be equally well-served in jumping onto RER at Milliken if they needed to head downtown.
epcjay
New Member
Cost will also be the deciding factor whether people will take the GO or TTC.
With the current fare structure or even the test fare structure with Main Station and Danforth GO, I still would rather bus to Sheppard\McCowan instead of Millken GO Station if I needed to get downtown from McCowan and Steeles.
With the current fare structure or even the test fare structure with Main Station and Danforth GO, I still would rather bus to Sheppard\McCowan instead of Millken GO Station if I needed to get downtown from McCowan and Steeles.
nfitz
Superstar
For the fraction of people who work near Union, or perhaps even as far north as Queen perhaps. But if you then have to change to the Danforth line at Kennedy, then I think you would simply drive (or transit) to the subway terminus.
For a city used to never having to wait more than 6 minutes for a subway train (well, schedule says less than 6 minutes ... if reality is sometimes 9, then reality says the 15 minutes will sometimes be 20)?
No, that's a real problem, particularly if your destination isn't near, or south of Union.