News   May 07, 2024
 103     0 
News   May 07, 2024
 693     3 
News   May 07, 2024
 467     0 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Seems with transit projects (and their ensuing debates) the most important numbers to gauge a line's worth is average weekday ridership. This kinda makes sense, since with a line like Sheppard we all tend to quote how its ridership is on par with surface lines such as 504 King. In the 2008 Metrolinx Backgrounder it does provide us with annual ridership projections. I'm not certain, but I was under the impression that in order to get daily numbers from annual you simply count a weekend as one day (i.e - to get daily from annual you divide by 312 days). So if anyone wants to see how certain lines/extensions weigh up against one another in this manner, this could be handy. All I did was the annual->wkday math, so I can't speak to the validity of the numbers beyond simply pointing to their source.

I would think that the very low ridership in Stouffville corridor, as opposed to Lakeshore, Kitchener, Milton, and even Richmond Hill, is due to the fact that in 2008 Metrolinx had no intention to prioritize that corridor. If Stouffville only gets hourly trains, will other corridors are given priority and get an every 15-min service, then naturally the Stouffville ridership will be lower.

But if Stouffville is treated as one of priority corridors, then there is no reason it will trail RH, Kitchener, or Milton (might still trail Lakeshore, but not so dramatically).
 
The 2006 report said that Mark 2 was less expensive for the Kennedy to McCowan portion. The extension to Malvern is planned to be fully grade separated, so I agree that this part would be roughly the same cost. But when you add up the total cost of the line, Mark 2 is still cheaper

I am looking at the report called "Scarborough Rapid Transit Benefits Case", dated January 2009. Table on Page 8 shows the capital cost of ICTS (Option 1, Kennedy to Malvern Centre) = 1,612 million, versus LRT (Option 3, also Kennedy to Malvern Center grade separated) = 1,404 million).

So, LRT is actually a bit cheaper (not sure why; perhaps either the cars or the trackbed are a bit cheaper).
 
Keithz can't complain if this gets buried. A Tory hugger from the start. Arrogantly tells us M1Bers that Scarborough voted overwhelmingly for Smarttrack. How do you sleep at night?

Coffey and Burloak, this is the Scarborough subway thread. If you want to cover your bedroom walls with newspaper clippings and black & white telephotos of your Eglinton viaduct skytrains or little Mel's toy trains, go on ahead (and I'm assuming you two are already way ahead of the rest of the world there) but stop trying to derail this thread and its discussion of the M1B getting what it rightly deserves.

You are so rude today. Did not get a good night sleep?
 
That's all reasonable, except ... do the residents of Scarborough actually think that their local bus service is not working well, and desperately needs improvements?

They may not think it or complain about it, but most shortish trips in Scarborough are not currently via transit, walking, or cycling so there are likely significant improvements that could be made. Street layouts certainly add a huge number of constraints and cause both long walks and winding neighbourhood bus routes.

Individual opinion seldom gives competent long-term suggestions for improving the collective situation. It's almost always tainted by how they currently do things and a bit of an assumption that the next generation will want to do things the same way they did. Very few who commute from/to Scarborough today will be doing so to the same destinations in 10+ years when something is actually implemented, so their opinions carry quite a bit less weight.

A skillful model almost always beats individual opinion for predicting the outcome of complex changes, particularly over a long time-frame where large behaviour changes occur by swapping out the people (driver retires, new family buys the property and commutes by transit).


I have serious doubts that any one of Smart Track, LRT, or a subway extension are the best answer for Scarborough and proposals to put all resources into a single project are misguided. I suspect if we ran numerous options (genetic testing) through the U of T's GTA Simulator a combination of BRT segments with guaranteed headways (run gap buses like we do gap trains) would likely pop out as the most effective way to spend $3B on Scarborough.


I'm not sure any of those transit options will have a firm construction contract in place prior to the next provincial election. I will probably vote Wynne, but my money today is on a Conservative led minority government running with a "pause, reorganize, evaluate results, and double-down" type campaign (in-place contracts will be finished, GO RER will be slowed down but finished, municipality level transit investments deferred beyond 2022).
 
Last edited:
Interesting that Eglinton's avg weekday ridership is so high in comparison. Really shows how well used the Crosstown is going to be offpeak, which is believable considering day-time bus ridership on Eglinton.

Yeah, that definitely jumps out. I wonder if grade-separating some of the western portion and heading to Sauga as per SmartTrack will increase that number, and by how much. Decreased stops for increased speed/reliability.

I would think that the very low ridership in Stouffville corridor, as opposed to Lakeshore, Kitchener, Milton, and even Richmond Hill, is due to the fact that in 2008 Metrolinx had no intention to prioritize that corridor. If Stouffville only gets hourly trains, will other corridors are given priority and get an every 15-min service, then naturally the Stouffville ridership will be lower.

But if Stouffville is treated as one of priority corridors, then there is no reason it will trail RH, Kitchener, or Milton (might still trail Lakeshore, but not so dramatically).

I think Markham upped their growth and mode share numbers for the Unionville area since 08, which obviously would increase ridership (not to mention the project's political viability). So that might be a reason for it being bumped up in priority. But even without that, there may be a reason the numbers are so low. When looking at the recent YRNS report, it notes that a DRL Long and Surface Subway proposal (up to Sheppard/Don Mills) would slash Stouffville's ridership by almost 2k peak. This is somewhat surprising, seeing that the distance from the Stouffville line is fairly large. This leads me to believe that with Richmond Hill RER in place (which roughly follows the DRL Long/Surface shape), it would draw from Stouffville's potential. So perhaps at the time, Mlinx's computation concluded that RH would be a better bet for bringing in riders from Markham and NE TO.

But there are problems with the RH line, which could also explain why Stouffville was bumped up and RH dropped:
a) It needs realignment through Leaside. This would decrease length, increase speed, offer new station opportunities, and reduce flooding potential. Although this is necessary, it's costly and would be politically problematic seeing that it requires tunneling or a rail-trail reactivation.
b) Excluding the RH line from investment/upgrade improves the business case and ridership #s for the Yonge North subway extension.
c) It and the Don Valley corridor in general is being analyzed as part of the Yonge Relief Network Study.

Though one thing we don't know (or do we?) is how much a Scarborough Subway Extension would decrease Stouffville's ridership. It's gotta be somewhat substantial. With a DRL Long and SSE in place (not to mention Lakeshore East RER), I really see little need to make Stouffville GO such a high priority.

Edit:
Another reason why I think that 2008 Modelling report is worth its weight in gold is that it shows us holistic ridership data which has seemingly never been presented together since. Further to point b) I made above; in the 2008 model we're shown what effect we'd see if we built Richmond Hill RER and the Yonge North extension to RHC. In the 2013 Yonge North BCA this was never included. All we were greeted with were projections for either/or - not both. Seems odd that in BCA for a $700M/km subway extension we aren't given the opportunity to see to what effect a parallel service would reduce the business case for this subway. With the 08 model we know that its potential to divert is significant.

This, Stoffville's #s, and a few other points re: different lines are why I think that report comes in handy.
 
Last edited:
Vancouver can run their trains very close together. It's too bad the TTC just didn't buy more trains if they think that the capacity of the line is the problem.

 
I am looking at the report called "Scarborough Rapid Transit Benefits Case", dated January 2009. Table on Page 8 shows the capital cost of ICTS (Option 1, Kennedy to Malvern Centre) = 1,612 million, versus LRT (Option 3, also Kennedy to Malvern Center grade separated) = 1,404 million).

So, LRT is actually a bit cheaper (not sure why; perhaps either the cars or the trackbed are a bit cheaper).

I look at the politics of the time.

The 2006 TTC report was written before Miller introduced his LRT plan, and the prevailing political pressure was to extend the B-D subway to STC (and connect it with the extended Sheppard Subway). The report found the Mark II extension to be the lowest cost - about 20% lower than LRT. It also found Mark II to be 70% less than the subway extension.

The 2009 report was written when the political pressure was to support the recently announce Transit City LRT plan. Not surprising, the LRT was chosen to be the preferable solution.

The June 2012 Metrolinx report was written 5 months after council famously took away the transit file from Rob Ford. The political pressure at the time was to conclude that the Transit City LRT plan was the best. However, this report found that the connected Eglinton-Scarborough line was the best solution. The first time this combined route was studied. Unfortunately, the use of Mark II was not considered in this report.

So it seems that the 2 reports with the most credibility found against the Transit City LRT plan with forced transfer.
 
The 2006 TTC report was written before Miller introduced his LRT plan, and the prevailing political pressure was to extend the B-D subway to STC (and connect it with the extended Sheppard Subway).
I recall no prevailing political, or even any, pressure to extend the B-D subway back in 2006. It all seemed massively under the radar when that report dropped.
 
I recall no prevailing political, or even any, pressure to extend the B-D subway back in 2006. It all seemed massively under the radar when that report dropped.

Agreed. Soberman's initial presentation where he strongly advised starting subway work immediately to ensure it finished before the SRT died (2013/2014 IIRC) didn't seem to enthuse the crowd. His enthusiasm for the subway option didn't seem to make his final report either. Of course, it would be odd for the man who gave Toronto the SRT to recommend anything other than maintaining the SRT.
 
Last edited:

Take indications of 'pressure' and 'controversy' on Wikipedia with a grain of salt. Wikipedia has a policy of writing from a neutral point of view, and this usually waters things down. It usually breaks down to factual writing of 'this side said this, and the other side claimed this', fullstop.
 
Which politicians? I don't recall this as any serious proposal. Pasternak proposed extending the Sheppard line west of Yonge on an annual basis, but that doesn't mean it's noteworthy.

Though now I look at it ... there was some meeting at early in Transit City where Scarborough councillors were talking about subways, and Miller/Giambrone talked them off the ledge - but that was in 2007 or 2008 ... not 2005. I can quickly delete that Wikipedia text - that article has major issues, and this isn't referenced.
 
Drum118.........

Earlier I stated why not just improve the SRT to handle MK111 cars and save tons of money and your answer was "The Ellesmere Tunnel"

So Toronto's answer to not spending a $200 million on a tunnel is to spend $3 billion on another tunnel that runs parallel to it.............gotcha ya. Toronto transit planning at it's stellar best.
 
So Toronto's answer to not spending a $200 million on a tunnel is to spend $3 billion on another tunnel that runs parallel to it.............gotcha ya. Toronto transit planning at it's stellar best.

The Scarborough subway had everything to do with pandering to Scarborough voters, and you know it. This was not about avoiding spending money on that tunnel. And besides, the scuttled LRT plan never required any changes to the tunnel to begin with.
 

Back
Top