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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

rbt said:
No. They're getting the provinces alignment terminating at SCC if the city doesn't kick in the cash to build their own recommended alignment.
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The frustrating thing about that alignment is that we're paying billions more just so we can change the vehicles on the line, have fewer stations and have less corridor flexibility in the future. Such a dumb plan.

Anyways, it is questionable if the $1.4 Billion will even be able to cover the costs of the plan. I guess we'll find out soon enough. I just hope that Council rejects any funding for the line.
 
salsa said:
I don't understand how the province can unilaterally go with the subway when there is a master agreement to build lrt. Technically the original plan still stands even after all those press conferences. Am I missing something?
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They entity paying the bills gets to make the decisions; and politically you're not going to find residents rallying behind the LRT option.
 
salsa said:
I don't understand how the province can unilaterally go with the subway when there is a master agreement to build lrt. Technically the original plan still stands even after all those press conferences. Am I missing something?
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I'm not confident at all that the province will go ahead with the Subway if council votes against it. Some councillors seem to think that a vote against the subway will allow the province to revert back to the LRT. They'd just have to say that they don't want to force transit projects on anyone.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I'm not confident at all that the province will go ahead with the Subway if council votes against it. Some councillors seem to think that a vote against the subway will allow the province to revert back to the LRT. They'd just have to say that they don't want to force transit projects on anyone.
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If council doesn't pass a tax to fund ~$1B for this Scarborough line, they will never be able to pass a tax to fund a $8B DRL... The best way would be to placate this group now so they will support the DRL in the future.
 
I feel it is fair to say that the last half decade has seen transit technologies become a partisan game. This goes for Miller as well, not just Ford, though the former at least didn't intend to see it played out like this.

If Miller had announced plans for a subway line in his Transit City plan, or even at some point later on, then I don't think we would have seen Ford and the right try and twist the technology debate the way that they have.

Likewise the left has denounced everything but light rail (coughstevemunrocough), with the exception of the downtown line. The way some of the left argue against subways, you would think that they are worse than downtown highways.

Hell, we have even sounded off against aspects which are in our own best interests. A subway would see higher ridership which would be better for the environment, but we cannot support it because it will mean the current network will be too busy. With this line of thinking, the only rapid transit this city would have is up to Eglinton and the Bloor-Danforth line would have never been constructed.

Perhaps LRT would be better for Scarborough. Believe it or not, I do see plenty of merit in it. But I also see plenty of merit in the subway plan as well. This isn't Sheppard we are talking about, besides both being in Scarborough they are apples to oranges. The subway may cost more and not be as good a value, but it also does some things better than the LRT plan and the government has wasted far more money on far worse transit decisions.
 
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Electrify said:
the left has denounced everything but light rail (coughstevemunrocough), with the exception of the downtown line. The way some of the left argue against subways, you would think that they are worse than downtown highways.
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So there's no possibility that "the left" might actually be...correct? That is, that subways are a fiscal excess given the demand on the corridors they have been proposed, that there are other more pressing funding priorities, and that it better to spend money on bringing a lot of medium-volume transit solutions to a lot of people rather than focus on one or two extremely expensive high-volume projects for areas that don't necessarily warrant the capacity?

It's a common argument trope to play the "well, both sides are equally wrong" card, but that doesn't mean it's always true.

the government has wasted far more money on far worse transit decisions
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And that is perhaps the worst possible argument for the extension.
 
Electrify said:
I feel it is fair to say that the last half decade has seen transit technologies become a partisan game. This goes for Miller as well, not just Ford, though the former at least didn't intend to see it played out like this.

If Miller had announced plans for a subway line in his Transit City plan, or even at some point later on, then I don't think we would have seen Ford and the right try and twist the technology debate the way that they have.

Likewise the left has denounced everything but light rail (coughstevemunrocough), with the exception of the downtown line. The way some of the left argue against subways, you would think that they are worse than downtown highways.

Hell, we have even sounded off against aspects which are in our own best interests. A subway would see higher ridership which would be better for the environment, but we cannot support it because it will mean the current network will be too busy. With this line of thinking, the only rapid transit this city would have is up to Eglinton and the Bloor-Danforth line would have never been constructed.

Perhaps LRT would be better for Scarborough. Believe it or not, I do see plenty of merit in it. But I also see plenty of merit in the subway plan as well. This isn't Sheppard we are talking about, besides both being in Scarborough they are apples to oranges. The subway may cost more and not be as good a value, but it also does some things better than the LRT plan and the government has wasted far more money on far worse transit decisions.
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Plus this will make Scarborough shut up already so we can build the rest of the big move.
 
What an awful "both sides are to blame" argument.

And to demand Steve Munro, he's not anti-subway. Enough with that accusation.
 
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Electrify said:
I feel it is fair to say that the last half decade has seen transit technologies become a partisan game. This goes for Miller as well, not just Ford, though the former at least didn't intend to see it played out like this.

If Miller had announced plans for a subway line in his Transit City plan, or even at some point later on, then I don't think we would have seen Ford and the right try and twist the technology debate the way that they have.
Click to expand...

Miller should have put the Spadina extension, which he budgeted for (roughly ~$750M in 2013 dollars) onto the Transit City map.

He funded more subway than Ford is willing to fund; and seems to have gotten a ton of flak for not advertising that more. We managed $750M without any significant pain; we can do $1.1B pretty easily too.

The way some of the left argue against subways, you would think that they are ...
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... far more expensive in a suburban setting than the benefit derived from them?
 
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At the end of the day the LRT won't be built, because if the city doesnt want to put in any money, what gives them the right to dictate to the province on what to build. The LRT project is dead because the province is not going to build it and the LRT funding depends on them, unless the city is willing to build the LRT with their own money.
 
$40 million per year operating cost for the subway extension, year after year after year .... compared with nothing/zilch for the LRT which the province (Metrolynx) would pay for. The subway trains will be running half-empty because there's not enough ridership. (The Sheppard "stubway" was supposed to carry 2 or 3 times what the actual ridership is today.)
 
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It would be $40 million annually, but I wouldn't be surprised if they made $40 million in fares off of it.

I'm liking what Gord Perks is saying.
 
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