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Conservative Minority. F**king glad its all over.

Is a beaver dam natural or artificial?

Natural. Beavers build dam instictively, not because they think out the whole meaning of the dam and what it does.

Is a human dam natural or artificial?

Artificial. Humans fully understand what building a dam means and entails through ingenuity and conscious thought.

How about an ant hill?

Natural. Ants follow instincts.

A human house?

A human fully understands what it is doing. It makes a conscious non instinctive decision to build a house. Instincts and urges are natural. The results of conscious thought by a sentient being is unnatural although the ability of a sentient being to think using a brain developed through natural evolution is natural. The results that come from a conscious thought can be normal or abnormal based on perspective but it will always be unnaturral by definition. If a guy is gay free of a conscious decision to be gay then it is natural for him to be gay. If a guy forces himself to be gay then it is unnatural for him to be gay.

The answer to all of these questions should, logically, be the same and both answers are correct.

Only if you want to throw out the meaning of natural. Some incorrectly use the term "natural" in place of "normal" but that would be an incorrect usage of the term.

note: Sorry for all the editing I do to my posts. I see a spelling mistake and feel obliged to correct it. The Spell Check button seems to hang.
 
This is great...

inaug-phonecall-724858.jpg
 
Quote:Is a beaver dam natural or artificial?

Natural. Beavers build dam instictively, not because they think out the whole meaning of the dam and what it does.

Quote:Is a human dam natural or artificial?

Artificial. Humans fully understand what building a dam means and entails through ingenuity and conscious thought.

Forgive me if I am inclined to believe you answer is the result of a lack of knowledge as to why and how beavers approach their issues. That is, humans don't understand why they do what they do and as a result we want to categorize it differently from ourselves.

Are you sure humans act on a different or "higher" intellectual plane than beavers or is that wishful thinking? No doubt the thought process is more complex and the result have different efficiencies labour wise but the reasons for taking action are filling the same insticts for similar needs (food, shelter, etc.).

I don't see how complexity can change whether an action is natural or not. If complexity of thought does matter, where is the bar set? Super-human level? Human level? Primate level? Mammel level? Single celled organism level? Where does building an {insert something here} go from being super-natural (artificial) to natural?

That is, how do you determine where concious thought was used and where instict was used?

I see a spelling mistake and feel obliged to correct it.
Don't worry about it. It's only natural?
 
I don't see how complexity can change whether an action is natural or not. If complexity of thought does matter, where is the bar set? Super-human level? Human level? Primate level? Mammel level? Single celled organism level? Where does building an {insert something here} go from being super-natural (artificial) to natural?

The difference between natural and unnatural on your scale of super-human (which I assume is sentient but somehow more advance than humans), humans, primates, mammals would be somewhere in the difference between humans and primates. Where the line is between primates and humans is debatable because it is difficult to know if certain primmates have an ability to go beyond basic response to stimuli reactions or mimickry and to be able to think out or conceptualize all their actions, communicate, be creativite, and have a sense of accomplishment. An animal which is fully conscious and makes a conscious decisions to do things is doing something unnatural but which lifeforms other than humans are close to this bar and whether or not other lifeforms go over that bar is unknown. One could have long long discussions on what differentiates the thought processes of man and primates but barring the ability to go inside their minds we can probably only make educated guesses on the subject.

That is, how do you determine where concious thought was used and where instict was used?

Outside of a particular person's mind it is very difficult to determine whether or not at any moment the person is consciously thinking about what they are doing. This is where prosecuting crimes can become very difficult... the question of whether a persons actions stem from basic instincts (natural and uncontrolled behaviour) or are premeditated (consciously thought out) is important to understanding what level of punishment makes sense.
 
Where does building an {insert something here} go from being super-natural (artificial) to natural?

I notice you used the term supernatural I figured I should point out that supernatural does not mean artificial. Supernatural is the idea that something can go beyond natural and beyond science. I personally don't believe in the supernatural.

Natural (uninfluenced by conscious decision and not beyond science) -> unnatural (influenced by conscious decision but not beyond science) -> supernatural (influenced by miracles or god and beyond science).
 
I notice you used the term supernatural I figured I should point out that supernatural does not mean artificial.
I used the term only because everything from a supernatural (presumably super-human) being would by definition be artificial and adequately indicated one extreme end of the scale as to where the break between artificial and natural could be.

This allows people who would debate that everything humans do is natural to move the break point should they wish to do so.

My questioning is designed in an attempt to understand your viewpoint.

As stated earlier, my own viewpoint is at a more basic level than thought and relates to the laws of the universe on particles. If the object is bound by those laws then it is natural regardless of the method of creation or of our understanding or mis-understanding of those laws. What humans creates are artifices of nature -- they are bound to the same cycles and rules just as much as anything created by chance.


Debates like this are the same as those about intelligence. Humans debating intelligence will have a different answer than if gophers did the debating.

If we ever do find intelligence in the universe outside of that on earth there is a good chance that they may not consider us to be intelligent.
 
:rollin @ the pic

But in all honesty, the Conservatives won't be as bad as some people think. Canada doesn't have a strong party that is as right as the American Republicans; our Conservatives are more like the American Democrats where as the Liberals are more left.
 
Man which is natural making something happen through a concious decision results in something unnatural because that is the difference between natural and unnatural. The delineation between natural and unnatural is the presence of a conscious decision.

So what are you saying, human consciousness is "unnatural?" You better give that up, too, then, since you are so utterly opposed to all things that are "unnatural" in your estimation. I would disagree, however, and say that not only is human consciousness "natural," but so are the thoughts, decisions, imaginings and creativity derived from that conscious activity. So, too, are human self-deceptions, such as denial and avoidance - all quite "natural."

An extension of consciousness are the ideas and concepts that humans generate and create, along with processes and technologies that can be derived from these kinds of human capacities. Since they flow directly from consciousness, they are all quite "natural." They happen here on earth, not in some "unnatural" extra-planetary domain. Again, what is at issue here is your desire to impose your own opinions; you want to be the one passing judgement on what you deem to be "natural" and unnatural."

Who said "unnatural" is bad? "Unnatural" isn't automatically bad. Who would even suggest that everything a person does consciously or creates consciously would automatically be bad? Everything a person does consciously or creates consciously is unnatural.

The last sentence is simply nonsense. Where, in your opinion, would consciousness eminate from? Where?

So "unnatural" is not so bad for you now, even though you have imbued this vague notion with a negative outlook post after post; suddenly your view changes. Does this arise when you come to understand that you are implicated in what you deem to be so "unnatural?" Can you then trust any of you "unnatural" inclinations when considering how you would approach the "natural" world? You have argued for extreme separation between these binary realms that you so believe exist; how could you ever imagine that you have a capacity to know what is good for the "natural" realm? Wouldn't your opinions on how to manage nature be "unnatural" by way of your own definition that the acts of human consciousness are "unnatural?"
 
You need to understand the definition of words such as natural and unnatural before any discussion with you is worthwhile. What do you think natural and unnatural means? What is your definition of natural if it isn't the definition in the dictionary and as it is widely used in texts? Do you not think words have meanings attached to them? I suggest you go debate the english language with an english professor who can guide you on the use of terminology in a discussion. Maybe he can better explain the differences between the meanings of natural vs unnatural, natural vs normal, natural vs right, and natural vs real. The word natural exists in the english language to convey an idea and if you can't wrap your head around the meaning of it then I can't help you.
 
You need to understand the definition of words such as natural and unnatural before any discussion with you is worthwhile. What do you think natural and unnatural means?

The definitions according to you? I have already asked you to provide definitions, you have provided your opinion with not evidence to support your delineations.

If you don't think discussion is worthwhile, then don't discuss.

I suggest you go debate the english language with an english professor who can guide you on the use of terminology in a discussion.

Maybe you should examine your own particularist assumptions. You are the one who repeatedly raised the issue of "unnatural" versus "natural." Time and time again I have stated that such a situation simply does not exist within the context of evolution, life on earth, physical laws and so on. We have no exit-card into the domain of "unnatural." You are the one defining the products of human consciousness as "unnatural." You are constructing a point of view in your own mind, and you are failing to distinguish between what you see out there and the judgements you make.

A word is not a phenomenon; the words "rain storm" are neither rain nor a storm. You continuously confuse the word and phenomena for being the same thing. It is you imparting your personal and particular values and judgements upon the words. You assume the word "natural" as you use it is self-explanatory, so to with your use of "unnatural." Words are not absolutes, they are not permanently fixed, and require context. The world around you is much too complex to be stuffed into a words.

I can't help you

I don't need it.
 
The definitions according to you? I have already asked you to provide definitions, you have provided your opinion with not evidence to support your delineations.

No, I didn't invent the english language. The definitions of words in the english language we set out long before my time.

I will quote the dictionary again because that is where the meanings of words are defined. I didn't write the dictionary.

na·ture n.
1. The material world and its phenomena.
2. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
3. The world of living things and the outdoors: the beauties of nature.
4. A primitive state of existence, untouched and uninfluenced by civilization or artificiality.

nat·u·ral adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature.
4. a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
c. Biological Term. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.

Antonym of natural is artificial

ar·ti·fi·cial adj.
1. a. Made by humans; produced rather than natural.
b. Brought about or caused by sociopolitical or other human-generated forces or influences.
2. Made in imitation of something natural; simulated: artificial teeth.
3. Not genuine or natural: an artificial smile.

These are the meanings of these words.

You are the one who repeatedly raised the issue of "unnatural" versus "natural." Time and time again I have stated that such a situation simply does not exist within the context of evolution, life on earth, physical laws and so on.

I agree that unnatural cannot apply to physical laws because those laws are not consciously determined by man and therefore can only be natural. Hence the reason they are historically referred to as the Natural Sciences. The rules of science are absolute and are not products of the human mind. I disagree that unnatural or natural can apply to evolution. If humankind performs genetic manipulation on itself that would be unnatural evolution since it is evolution through artificial means. As far as life on earth, all life is natural because there was no conscious decision by man to create it... there are no artificial lifeforms at present.

We have no exit-card into the domain of "unnatural."

Yes we do. Our thoughts are the domain of the unnatural. What happens in our dreams or thoughts is a product of the human mind and does not follow any natural laws. A person can dream or think they can fly like superman or that they are walking down the street without it being real. A person can envisage a home they have not yet built and plan how to do it in their mind. This is the realm of the unnatural. Any product of the unnatural such as creativity and ingenuity is unnatural. Through a microscope you will never find creativity and ingenuity when disecting a human brain nor will you see thoughts. You will find electrochemical reactions, neurons, etc but not thoughts.
 
As I have stated over and over again, you are the one who is splitting the world into two pieces, one you determine to be "natural" and "unnatural." To me, there is just one world here and we are all a part of it. That would include what we think and what we do, because thinking and the full menu of human capacities are a part and product of this world we evolved on.

I have stated in response (too many times now) that everything is part of nature, part of the ecosystem, part of the planet, defined and limited by natural laws and so on. This would include our thoughts, our fanatasies, our creations, our interpretations, our theories, our inventions, our techniques, our technologies, our lives, our deaths and so on. The stuff in our brains and the stuff outside our brains: it is all part of this real world, this continuum that we are completely enmeshed in. There is no seperate realm defined by some constraints of "unnaturalness," no bubble of "un-ness."

You are choosing to make your own judgement when you define "unnatural" versus "natural." You are imposing your point of view. There is no natural and unnatural worlds sitting side by side. There is this world, which includes us, with our brains, and our thinking capabilities, our imagination, our capacities to adapt, our ability to move alter and build, our creativity to invent and change.

Dictionaries are filled with words that are figures of speech, words that have had their meanings and applications evolve, and change over time; words that define phenomena or ideas that require considerable exposure to fully understand what they are attempting to signify. The portion "un" of unnatural is a prefix, it is not a word. It is used to draw opposites, that's all, including prejudicial ones. Everything after that becomes a linguistic convenience, an artifical categorization to split things into smaller portions so as to aid elements of simple communication between people. Words don't reify the world. The word "tree" is not a tree, is it?

I suppose because you find the word "evil" in the dictionary that you must believe the extensive meaning of the word, as in its biblical use and beyond, for example. Or do you take it for something else? Do you accept evil as the work of the devil, a real portion of the world like water, or do you find the notioned loaded with baggage that actually blinds understanding of what might actually be going on in given situation? Or do you use the word because it is convenient and available for conversation?

Yes we do. Our thoughts are the domain of the unnatural. What happens in our dreams or thoughts is a product of the human mind and does not follow any natural laws.

Again, what do you mean by "unnatural?" A dream is the work of a brain? Is the brain "unnatural?" Can you understand that it is you applying the term "unnatural" on dreams and thoughts, and that just because you do, it isn't so? And by the way, the brain is most certainly defined by natural laws, including physiology, biochemistry and biophysics. Plenty of stuff out there to support the brain and its neuronal processes, which is the stuff of mind, as being a real bonafide natural human organ.



For someone who views himself as an environmentalist, you have an interesting view of human beings vis-a-vis the world around you. You claim to accept the theory of evolution, but have a belief that particular aspects of human beings are somehow seperate from the natural evolutionary processes, such as our thoughts and thinking. You proclaim that thoughts are not the product of natural laws, but argue that words invented by human beings are, by some unexplained process, accurate descriptions of actual things. If humans didn't think them up, who provided them? And according you, thoughts are unnatural (see your many assertions on this topic).

All of this would suggest that you view the environment as something external to yourself; you are divorced from it by way of your thinking, unlinked to it, not part of it, since the only way to understand it requires you to think about it. If your thinking is, by your own description, "unnatural," how could you ever pretend to even remotely understand the world around you, or even your own body for that matter? How could you ever assert to make such a claim to comprehend something by way of an activity you declare as unnatural?

Following that, how could you then claim to do something about solving environmental problems in that world if you are so absolutely sure that your unlinked, "unnatural," thoughts are so incapable of even grasping the world around you due to their unnaturalness?

By your own description, and by your own apparent beliefs on such things, you could actually be a danger - and you wouldn't even know it.

Now that's a big problem.
 
A word is not a phenomenon; the words "rain storm" are neither rain nor a storm.

You are right that a word is not a phenomenon. A word is a group of letters or sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning. The word "storm" has a meaning and placing the word "rain" in front of "storm" futher refines the topic to a certain type of storm, a "rain storm". A "rain storm" is a type of "storm".

When I answer these questions to the best of my understanding:
1. What does natural mean?
2. What does artificial mean?
3. Is artifical the antonym of natural?
4. If there is nothing that is not natural why is natural used as an adjective to describe so many things like natural disaster, natural sciences, natural selection, etc. because wouldn't the word natural be useless or redundant in any sentence if nothing is not natural?

... I come to my conclusion, based on looking at use in various fields of study and based on the dictionary definition, of what "natural" means as a word. You can come to your own conclusion and make it to mean whatever you like. If they changed the definition of the words in the dictionary to something incompatible with the definition of the word as I believe it to be, then I would change my definition accordingly. I'm not going to change my understanding of a word's meaning based on what a Urban Toronto forumer says because I have no idea whether or not he is an Oxford University PhD English Professor or something quite different.

I have stated in response (too many times now) that everything is part of nature, part of the ecosystem, part of the planet, defined and limited by natural laws and so on. This would include our thoughts, our fanatasies, our creations, our interpretations, our theories, our inventions, our techniques, our technologies, our lives, our deaths and so on. The stuff in our brains and the stuff outside our brains: it is all part of this real world, this continuum that we are completely enmeshed in. There is no seperate realm defined by some constraints of "unnaturalness," no bubble of "un-ness."

That is your opinion and it differs from mine. I agree that all atoms and atomic particles are natural, and all the rules that govern their interaction is natural. I accept that all the rules of sciences such as biology, chemistry, and physics are natural. I have no reason to believe that the social sciences, judicial law, thoughts, dreams, art, and man's inventions are natural based on what the definition of natural as well as what words related to the word natural seem to be. I accept that these inventions come from a natural brain carrying out the natural act of thinking and that the thoughts are a product of natural electrochemical reactions in the brain but the definition of natural based on my understanding is the difference between a chemical reaction in the brain and the conceptualization of an idea, not because there is anything miraculous going on but simply because that seems to be the natural border between what is man made and what is not. One does not consciously move chemicals around in the brain but one consciously controls the train of thought.

If you do not share the same definition of natural then that is fine. The word natural does not mean acceptable to me and the words unnatural and artificial does not mean unacceptable to me so what I am stating in the previous paragraph is not saying thoughts are bad or abnormal... it is simply saying that the definition of natural as I understand it would not include thoughts nor the creations that stem from it.

In any case I think I made it clear, regardless of the terminology stumbling block between us, what the goals of environmental protection should be in my opinion. Firstly, I believe that the goal should be to have some areas on the planet free from the influences of humankind so that we can go places and see what parts of the world would have looked like if we weren't involved and to gain the benefits of cleaner air and water associated with such a plan since the ability to have uninfluenced areas on the planet requires controlling the inputs and outputs of society into the environment. A zoo has some benefits for protecting animals but in my opinion a zoo is to the area of an uninfluenced ecosystem what a copy of the Mona Lisa painting is to the real thing. Secondly, I believe that we should change our ways to become more sustainable meaning that what we do should be possible to continue indefinitely without running into resource or energy constraints. If you don't share in the belief that this is what the goals should be and that there is no value in seeing nature in all its glory then that is your perogative. To clarify again, I am not against all things that are unnatural or man made, I simply support the existence of places on this earth which are completely uninfluenced by the conscious decisions and resulting actions of humankind (accepting that the decision to create such an area is a conscious decision of course).
 
If there is nothing that is not natural why is natural used as an adjective to describe so many things like natural disaster, natural sciences, natural selection, etc. because wouldn't the word natural be useless or redundant in any sentence if nothing is not natural?

Because it is a word usage and not a phenomenon. You can refer to my previous post about that.

... I come to my conclusion, based on looking at use in various fields of study and based on the dictionary definition, of what "natural" means as a word.

As a word, as a convenience, but not as a complete description as a phenomenon, so the word is quite limited. A word is not a phenomenon, whether that is your opinion or not.

I agree that all atoms and atomic particles are natural, and all the rules that govern their interaction is natural. I accept that all the rules of sciences such as biology, chemistry, and physics are natural. I have no reason to believe that the social sciences, judicial law, thoughts, dreams, art, and man's inventions are natural based on what the definition of natural as well as what words related to the word natural seem to be. I accept that these inventions come from a natural brain carrying out the natural act of thinking and that the thoughts are a product of natural electrochemical reactions in the brain but the definition of natural based on my understanding is the difference between a chemical reaction in the brain and the conceptualization of an idea,

So now you claim that thinking is "natural" when previously you have been claiming it to be "unnatural." But just where do you think an idea is "conceptualized?" If not in that "natural" brain, or by way of what you now accept as the "natural" process of thinking, where? Our inventions, etc., are simply an extension of that fact of thinking, which you now accept as "natural."

If you do not share the same definition of natural then that is fine

I am saying it is a continuum. "Unnatural" is a convenience, a contrivance made for human conversation, a loaded term, a prejudice. These words are used contra to each other to split a world that is not actually split up in such a way.

not because there is anything miraculous going on but simply because that seems to be the natural border between what is man made and what is not. One does not consciously move chemicals around in the brain but one consciously controls the train of thought.

But your sentence is suggesting the "miraculous" because you are once again splitting the brain up. A "natural" border between what is "man-made" and what is not? Who or what is making the thoughts, then? The brain makes consciousness, the brain makes thoughts. If the brain is "natural," then so are the resulting thoughts. Once again you contradict your own assertions.

Again, consciousness and conscious (as well as unconscious) acts and thoughts are a product of the brain (which you state is "natural), there is no separating them unless you specifically know of an agency free and untethered from the human brain living in people's heads. What you are dealing with is your own prejudice against human thinking and its results. Would dolphin thoughts and dreams be all automatically "natural" because they are not human? When apes use sticks as tools is it not the product of "unnatural" thoughts?

it is simply saying that the definition of natural as I understand it would not include thoughts nor the creations that stem from it.

I can't stop you from holding your own point of view, but sadly we go in circles; can a thought or its outcomes be "unnatural" when its only source is a "natural" brain?

You get completely bogged down in splitting hairs between what you believe is one thing or the other. in the end, you have merely stated an opinion that something is "unnatural." It is not a fact.

One of the capabilities of the human mind is to conceive of the idea of measures. As well, we have the capacity to comprehend cause and effect by way of thought and judgement. We can apply a range of strategies to looking at such relationships. That is a crucial step in understanding our own actions, and their effects, it is an element of reasoned thought. It really has nothing to do with debates over "unnatural" versus "natural." It has to do with comprehending and examining the range of cause and effect as best as we can understand them. It requires research.
 

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