vz64
Active Member
I thought we were considering the cost of ownership without utilities and property taxes? Well, then $686 a month for a house would be compatible with a condo fee of similarly priced condo?
|
|
|
Condo Fees vs. Home Ownership
- Thread starter West End Boy
- Start date
I thought we were considering the cost of ownership without utilities and property taxes? Well, then $686 a month for a house would be compatible with a condo fee of similarly priced condo?
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
1,000 sq. ft. house, plus unfinished basement, in Riverdale. Lived there since 1990:
Gas: $700/yr
Poverty Taxes: $3,400/yr.
Hydro ( metered ): $500/yr
Water ( metered ): $120/yr
House Insurance: $650/yr
Security System: $600/yr
Urban farmer on a modest scale, reducing food costs.
Gym at work: $5/month
Main upgrades since 1990:
New roofs: $6,000 total
New HVAC: $8,000
New red oak hardwood floors: $7,000
New front deck: $6,000
Remove garage, add fence, flagstone paving etc.: $3,000
General upkeep: $1,000/yr
Gas: $700/yr
Poverty Taxes: $3,400/yr.
Hydro ( metered ): $500/yr
Water ( metered ): $120/yr
House Insurance: $650/yr
Security System: $600/yr
Urban farmer on a modest scale, reducing food costs.
Gym at work: $5/month
Main upgrades since 1990:
New roofs: $6,000 total
New HVAC: $8,000
New red oak hardwood floors: $7,000
New front deck: $6,000
Remove garage, add fence, flagstone paving etc.: $3,000
General upkeep: $1,000/yr
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I realize the 1% value is a generalization but I still think the real costs of home ownership are much higher than people here are stating (P.S. a $5000 roof in 2010 dollars will last 7, not 25 years). Think about the general depreciation of the property, long-term capital costs, the store and repair of equipment (do you have or purchase a lawn mower or what about hand tools?). What about the cost associated with the time you took to DYI your own repairs and maintenance? Repairs and maintenance mean everything from yard work to common element maintenance to updating your furnace or cleaning out the gutters.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
My two flat roofs were put on in 1990 and 1993 and they're still in good shape, and the little sloped roof was put on last year ( The $6,000 I quoted was for all three and adjusted, as best I could, to 2010 dollars ). I don't pay a dime to store anything off-site because I have an unfinished basement where snow shovels, garden equipment etc. are kept. I pay someone $25 to wash the upstairs front window now and then, but the other windows I do myself. Cleaning evestroughs twice a year isn't something I need to pay someone else to do, nor is painting window frames every few years. Gardening is a joy in the nice weather ( and a good workout ), and I save money by growing fruit for jam-making, and for freezing for desserts to eat during the winter; I can sell the jam at the annual street sale if I wish and that more than covers my expenses. The value of the property has appreciated nicely in my neighbourhood, based on what neighbours have sold their places for. Getting a new furnace ( and adding central air ) in 2008, for $8,000, wasn't an outrageous expense considering I bought the house in 1990 and inherited the previous furnace from the former owner. I've found that a house is quite economical to live in.
UserNameToronto
Active Member
I'll go. Homeowner for 3 years. Property taxes are low due to assessed value being far below market value (gentrifying area).
1,200 sq. ft. semi c.1890, 3 stories, plus unfinished basement, 3 adults:
Gas: $1000/yr
Property Taxes: $2,200/yr
Hydro ( metered ): $800/yr
Water ( unmetered ): $200/yr
House Insurance: $1000/yr
Upgrades:
Eavestrough replacement: $600
DIY Insulation: $500
General upkeep: $1,000/yr
Total cost: $433/month including taxes general upkeep. If you net out tax, but include long term items like roof repairs, then I could see 1% of the home's value per year being a reasonable estimate (for us it would be $350/mo).
[EDIT] No front yard, small deck backyard, no lawn, no driveway, no garage, shovel 14 linear feet of sidewalk, walk to work 25 minutes (Bay St.).
1,200 sq. ft. semi c.1890, 3 stories, plus unfinished basement, 3 adults:
Gas: $1000/yr
Property Taxes: $2,200/yr
Hydro ( metered ): $800/yr
Water ( unmetered ): $200/yr
House Insurance: $1000/yr
Upgrades:
Eavestrough replacement: $600
DIY Insulation: $500
General upkeep: $1,000/yr
Total cost: $433/month including taxes general upkeep. If you net out tax, but include long term items like roof repairs, then I could see 1% of the home's value per year being a reasonable estimate (for us it would be $350/mo).
[EDIT] No front yard, small deck backyard, no lawn, no driveway, no garage, shovel 14 linear feet of sidewalk, walk to work 25 minutes (Bay St.).
Last edited:
UserName, are you including lawn maintenance, snow removal as part of general upkeep?
What isn't being factored in in these calculations is the cost of the homeowner's time. OK, you spend $30 on a snow shovel. If you hire someone to shovel the snow for you, you'll think about how much that cost. But if you do it yourself, what is the value of your time? If you spend 10 hours shovelling, is that worth $100? $200? $300?
Of course, some people actually like to shovel snow, mow lawns, etc. which is great and they're not worried about the time they spend. But others are busy or don't want to do it or whatever, so in their case, time is money, and you've got to include those hidden costs to do a true condo/house cost comparison.
But really, what it comes down to, is what do you want? Some people want to DIY, some people are willing to pay a monthly fee to have all of that stuff done for them. Some people want to take their garbage to the curb, some want to throw it down a chute (after responsibly sorting and recycling of course!). Different lifestyles come with different choices.
Even if you bring it down to dollars and cents, to truly compare apples with apples, you'd have to factor in real estate values, locations, etc. If you're living in a downtown condo and working downtown, what are your transportation costs vs living in a house where you have to commute? And so on and so forth ...
Makes for interesting discussion though!
What isn't being factored in in these calculations is the cost of the homeowner's time. OK, you spend $30 on a snow shovel. If you hire someone to shovel the snow for you, you'll think about how much that cost. But if you do it yourself, what is the value of your time? If you spend 10 hours shovelling, is that worth $100? $200? $300?
Of course, some people actually like to shovel snow, mow lawns, etc. which is great and they're not worried about the time they spend. But others are busy or don't want to do it or whatever, so in their case, time is money, and you've got to include those hidden costs to do a true condo/house cost comparison.
But really, what it comes down to, is what do you want? Some people want to DIY, some people are willing to pay a monthly fee to have all of that stuff done for them. Some people want to take their garbage to the curb, some want to throw it down a chute (after responsibly sorting and recycling of course!). Different lifestyles come with different choices.
Even if you bring it down to dollars and cents, to truly compare apples with apples, you'd have to factor in real estate values, locations, etc. If you're living in a downtown condo and working downtown, what are your transportation costs vs living in a house where you have to commute? And so on and so forth ...
Makes for interesting discussion though!
cacruden
Senior Member
Remember that two large areas of the condo fees are reserve fund (eventually the fund basically covers the replacement cost of everything that depreciates - including the building itself), and facilities (gym, etc.). They gym in my building is actually as good as most ones you might join. My parents have spent probably 50K plus on major fixes to roof, siding, etc. in the last 10 years - so I would say condo fees are probably about as equivalent to not having to worry about it. It really is up to the individual if they are a condo person, or prefer a house with their own back yard.
Eug
Senior Member
I find condo fees exhorbitant in many cases, but then again, mowing the lawn and gardening isn't cheap or necessarily easy either.
What I say to people that if you're moving into a house, don't expect to get away from "condo fees" because you'll end up paying them anyway through either time or contracted work.
It does depend on the size though of course. I had a mini garden on my condo/townhouse terrace. If I lived in a small semi with a small yard, I'd also likely only have a mini-garden, so the difference in time investment wouldn't be hugely different actually. However, I live in a detached home with a large yard and large garden and I found I couldn't afford to spend enough time to maintain the garden so I actually pay someone to come twice a month in the spring to help out... and I just look at it like paying condo fees, albeit only during the warm months. BTW, I'm still amused that I have a gardener, despite being solidly middle-class. As a kid I always associated gardeners as being something only the very rich and famous had.
As for shoveling the snow, again for a small house it shouldn't be a big deal most of the time, unless you have a huge driveway and lots of sidewalk. For my large driveway I was very annoyed last year with the record snowfalls. I almost hired a snow removal company to take care of everything going forward, but decided to try for one more year. I'm glad I didn't hire them, because this year I've spent just about no time at all shoveling, probably about a half hour total so far this winter, plus an extra $8 for some ice melter. However, in the future, I may just hire them anyway because you never know. It was great to wake up at 7 am in a condo townhouse to see your driveway had already been plowed... and never have to lose an extra 15 minutes of sleep in the morning to shovel the drive to get your car out. Indeed, my neighbour hasn't shoveled his driveway (other than a 5-10 minutes of walkway once in a while) in the last 5 years, because he just pays someone to do it.
What I say to people that if you're moving into a house, don't expect to get away from "condo fees" because you'll end up paying them anyway through either time or contracted work.
It does depend on the size though of course. I had a mini garden on my condo/townhouse terrace. If I lived in a small semi with a small yard, I'd also likely only have a mini-garden, so the difference in time investment wouldn't be hugely different actually. However, I live in a detached home with a large yard and large garden and I found I couldn't afford to spend enough time to maintain the garden so I actually pay someone to come twice a month in the spring to help out... and I just look at it like paying condo fees, albeit only during the warm months. BTW, I'm still amused that I have a gardener, despite being solidly middle-class. As a kid I always associated gardeners as being something only the very rich and famous had.
As for shoveling the snow, again for a small house it shouldn't be a big deal most of the time, unless you have a huge driveway and lots of sidewalk. For my large driveway I was very annoyed last year with the record snowfalls. I almost hired a snow removal company to take care of everything going forward, but decided to try for one more year. I'm glad I didn't hire them, because this year I've spent just about no time at all shoveling, probably about a half hour total so far this winter, plus an extra $8 for some ice melter. However, in the future, I may just hire them anyway because you never know. It was great to wake up at 7 am in a condo townhouse to see your driveway had already been plowed... and never have to lose an extra 15 minutes of sleep in the morning to shovel the drive to get your car out. Indeed, my neighbour hasn't shoveled his driveway (other than a 5-10 minutes of walkway once in a while) in the last 5 years, because he just pays someone to do it.
Last edited:
UserNameToronto
Active Member
Sure does!
I must add: No front yard, small deck backyard, no garage, shovel 14 linear feet of sidewalk in 2 minutes, walk to work 25 minutes (Bay St.). I don't even know what a "lawn" or "driveway" is, no one in my neighbourhood has either.
Last edited:
Eug
Senior Member
Yeah, I was just about to come back to post that addendum. In central Toronto, some people in houses don't even have driveways. They have street parking with permits... or may not have a car at all. For them, the only shoveling required is the mandatory sidewalk shoveling... that is if there is a sidewalk on their side of the street.
Similarly, a lot of smaller backyards (semis and small detached) are completely paved over, with at most large pots with plants. Not very hard to maintain at all, and not that different from my condo townhouse terrace. It doesn't usually make sense to have a 5000+ sq.ft. lot with a paved backyard though, IMO. People don't need 2000 sq.ft. of patio space.
Similarly, a lot of smaller backyards (semis and small detached) are completely paved over, with at most large pots with plants. Not very hard to maintain at all, and not that different from my condo townhouse terrace. It doesn't usually make sense to have a 5000+ sq.ft. lot with a paved backyard though, IMO. People don't need 2000 sq.ft. of patio space.
True enough ... yet more variables -- size of yard, amount to be mowed, size of driveway (if there is one), length of sidewalk (homeowners are required to keep the sidewalks clear). The cost of home ownership varies, just as condo fees do -- depends what you have!
BobBob
Senior Member
Another factor to consider: in a condo, the standards of upkeep are enforced by condo corp rules, and are generally very high.
In my building, landscaped areas generally never show neglect, common areas are kept clean, vacuumed, scuffs on hallway walls or floors are repaired momentarily, etc.
In a house, you have the option of delaying maintenance and repairs, or neglecting to clean or maintain your front/back yard.
If we want to compare apples to apples, we'd have to compare condos to a very well maintained house, where regular cleaning and maintenance of all important elements is the norm.
In my building, landscaped areas generally never show neglect, common areas are kept clean, vacuumed, scuffs on hallway walls or floors are repaired momentarily, etc.
In a house, you have the option of delaying maintenance and repairs, or neglecting to clean or maintain your front/back yard.
If we want to compare apples to apples, we'd have to compare condos to a very well maintained house, where regular cleaning and maintenance of all important elements is the norm.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
For someone like that, who owns a house but won't, or can't, personally do anything to look after it I suppose they'd have to hire people to come in and do everything for them. Or, if they reluctantly did it themselves, they'd be constantly thinking about how much they ought to be paying themselves for the labour that they'd normally be paying someone else for ... and feeling exploited because they're working for "free".
But the flip side of that coin is that, for a homeowner such as myself who enjoys gardening, doesn't mind cleaning a couple of evestroughs in the spring and fall, and grumbles about clearing snow but sees it as a fitness workout, I'm delighted that I'm "saving money" by not spending any to hire someone else to do small maintenance jobs I can do myself. And although I know that living in a house and buying a new furnace every 20/25 years is equivalent to some of the expenses covered by condo fees, I'm left with a sneaking suspicion that those fees are padded somewhere along the line and that I'm probably not getting my money's worth if I live in a condo. In a house you know where every cent goes, you own the land, and - assuming you get city approval - you can build addition to it, or tear down the garage and enlarge the garden ( or, in my neighbour's case, build a new garage with a green roof ) if you want; you certainly have more control.
But, as pointed out by others, the two modes also represent different ways of living that go beyond mere economics - a case of "comparing apples with oranges".
Absolutely, economics aside, one of the major differences between living in a house and a condo (presuming the house isn't in a "controlled" community) is control. You get to decide what to spend and when, who does any work you want to contract out, etc. Communal living is a whole other ball of wax.
For those that like mowing, gardening, etc. but also like the idea of a condo, there are condo houses/townhouses that can provide more of the feel of a house, because of course condos don't just come in the form of large buildings with multiple living units. Condo fees are usually less for houses/townhouses because you probably don't have 24 hour security, concierges, and other amenities that are found in multi-unit buildings.
Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we have the freedom to make these choices and to be able to afford them in some way, shape or form.
For those that like mowing, gardening, etc. but also like the idea of a condo, there are condo houses/townhouses that can provide more of the feel of a house, because of course condos don't just come in the form of large buildings with multiple living units. Condo fees are usually less for houses/townhouses because you probably don't have 24 hour security, concierges, and other amenities that are found in multi-unit buildings.
Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we have the freedom to make these choices and to be able to afford them in some way, shape or form.
syn
Senior Member
Agreed. I hear a lot of people complaining about condo fees, but they never seem to realize how many costs are associated with home maintenance...until they finally own one.