Riverman
Active Member
I disagree. Yes it is not polished like the suburbs but it is clean, feels safe and has a lot of character. My wife and
I spend most of our time there when in Toronto.
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Church-Wellesley Village
- Thread starter dt_toronto_geek
- Start date
I disagree. Yes it is not polished like the suburbs but it is clean, feels safe and has a lot of character. My wife and
I spend most of our time there when in Toronto.
RC8
Senior Member
I don't think anyone is comparing it to the suburbs, but rather to other downtown neighbourhoods.
I disagree on all accounts regarding it feeling safe, clean, or having character.
I actually don't think it's a bad place to live in, it's conveniently located and some of the nicer apt. buildings are quite neat. I just don't see Church as an attractive strip compared to almost every other retail street in Toronto.
Thanks for the info regarding the Red Rocket dt_geek! I didn't know they had opened a location there, I'll check it out.
Franchised coffee shops don't sell coffee hahah.
I disagree on all accounts regarding it feeling safe, clean, or having character.
I actually don't think it's a bad place to live in, it's conveniently located and some of the nicer apt. buildings are quite neat. I just don't see Church as an attractive strip compared to almost every other retail street in Toronto.
Thanks for the info regarding the Red Rocket dt_geek! I didn't know they had opened a location there, I'll check it out.
Franchised coffee shops don't sell coffee hahah.
mgl
Active Member
Oh come on, there is dumpiness everywhere and good stuff everywhere. I lived in Cabbagetown until 6 months ago and it was an eclectic mix of good stuff (St. Jamestown Steak and Chops) and some not so nice (Loonie or Less, Wing Machine, Coffee Time, etc.)
The village likewise has some great retail (About Cheese, Cumbraes, Pusateris) and nice restaurants (Sambucas, Cafe California) and of course, some not so nice.
I don't want to live in a sanitized neighbourhood where everything is brand new. That would just be a downtown version of a new suburb's retail strip. It's the mix of retail that gives a neighbourhood its character.
We did not move to the village because it was cheap, because it certainly was not cheap. We moved here for the location and the great place we bought.
The village likewise has some great retail (About Cheese, Cumbraes, Pusateris) and nice restaurants (Sambucas, Cafe California) and of course, some not so nice.
I don't want to live in a sanitized neighbourhood where everything is brand new. That would just be a downtown version of a new suburb's retail strip. It's the mix of retail that gives a neighbourhood its character.
We did not move to the village because it was cheap, because it certainly was not cheap. We moved here for the location and the great place we bought.
to_l
Active Member
I just did a quick little photoshop touchup on the Stephen Murphy houses and store building (until recently, The Barn).
This is a pretty lightweight job, but it shows how easily a renovation could start giving some integrity back to the building.
For extra fun, I've shown Glad Day Books in the ground floor retail space. I think that'd be a great fit - what with the working fireplaces and amount of room. Add a coffee shop, and I think it could really work.
If Bulldog moved across the street as well to the space on the west side of the building, they could make a nice patio =p
Tewder
Senior Member
I like your idea CanadianNational but Glad Day's Yonge location is sort of sacred to me, an 'historic' part of the geography there. I'd hate to see it move. Your point is well taken, however, that there is surely a suitable use for a post-Barn rehabilitation.
Bloor101
New Member
Apparently there is already strong interest in completely renovating the interior and re-opening as a new nightclub.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
I do agree that given Yonge Street's high traffic it's the best place for Glad Day but note that their original home was on Collier Street, just north of the Toronto Reference Library.
khris
Senior Member
The small sidewalks. Watch out for the vomit on the weekends!
The trashy people sitting outside who stare like they've never seen a human before.
Almost every bar is so run down and smelly. Eg. Crews/Tangos.
The owners of most of the buildings just don't care about the buildings, and don't take care of them.
The apartment buildings are mostly ugly around there. Slabby and old run down places.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Oh, come on! I always have one eye on the ground when I walk my dog (Labs will gobble anything off the ground in an instant so I'm always on the lookout) and I rarely see that, not that it doesn't happen along with everywhere else where there are clubs or sports bars
There are sketchy charactors here and there to be sure, but it's not unlike walking through any other busy pedestrian street like in the Annex, Queen West, Yonge Street, College West etc etc
I can't speak much to that, I don't go to bars often. I was in both Woody's and Statler's last winter/spring and they seemed fine from what I can recall.
Many of the buildings in the Village are well maintained, others not so much. Again, the same can be found with older building stock all over downtown with a few exceptions (i.e. St. Lawrence Market is pretty good overall).
Ugly? I don't think most of them are ugly but that's just my opinion. Dated, sure. I can't think of more than a half dozen buildings in the Village (at best) that are run down, at least from the exterior that I can see.
CanadianNational
Senior Member
Glad Day really needs a ground floor. Having it upstairs and tucked away - a leftover from the dubious old days - doesn't help it. Even if it could get the ground floor of the space it occupies on Yonge, that would be a big bonus.
Regarding the posts above, I think it's no exaggeration to say the neighbourhood is rather tired looking. The rents are enormously high (comparable to Yorkville, apparently) but a lot of the landlords are absentee or at a distance, so the care for the properties are not great. One look at the crumbling, derelict-looking apartment building at the northeast corner of Church and Wellesley is a first great example. Also, the amount of usable retail space is sharply ended at Alexander street at the south end, and becomes straggly and full of gaps north of Gloucester. The side streets leading off Church also don't have any retail on them. Part of the problem is that of the existing or desirable retail, there just isn't that much of it to go to, so the same spaces get used and re-used time after time. It's limited. Walking southward from Bloor to Dundonald (where things start to pick up a bit) is unpleasant (especially in winter). The stretch of Church between Carlton and Gerrard is downright ugly.
There is no major bar in the area that has been designed from the ground up. There is no major new restaurant in the area that is a brand new design. A quick look on google at "new bar designs" will show you what we're missing. The gay clubs here are generally decorated and designed with the same bare minimum of care that they were pre-liberation, when they could be easily raided and shut down. I wouldn't want all bars to have to be glamour spots, but a walk through the village looking to go clubbing will show you a lot of slipshod dumps. The condo boom has not warmed to the east side of the city quite the same way it has warmed to the west. Despite all the construction going on in the city, Church Street from Gerrard to Bloor looks more or less as it did in the early '90's. It's socially one thing to appreciate Church-Wellesley for it's social role in gay liberation, but aesthetically, urbanistically and architecturally, it's seedy.
The high concentration of social housing in the area is one factor - a quick look at an aerial view of the village neighbourhood shows a lot of low-income housing concentrated in the area. This is an area that tends to lacks disposable income. Add that to the higher amount poverty services, shelters and low income housing that has been rooted in the immediate downtown east area, and I think it'd be fair to say it has affected investments and new construction in the area. I think the political nature of the neighbourhood and its attendant insularity may have have contributed to this as well. I think that downtown east of Yonge is disproportionately burdened with poverty compared to other parts of the city.
It might sound inflammatory to say so, but I believe the neighbourhood needs more people with money in and around it. It needs new development around it quite badly, and a great deal of urban mending to what exists.
Now before I get hung out to dry, I do believe the city needs to keep up and continue to improve its social services, and radically expand the amount of affordable housing available, as should the Province. However, I think it should be distributed a bit more evenly and carefully throughout the city. Anyhoo...
I wouldn't want to see the village gentrified and sterilized. That would be horrible. However, it could definitely use some new urban polish and glam in areas it hasn't had it before.
My big hopes are that the block from Wellesley to Dundonald (on the west side) would make way for a new, polished and sophisticated development - one that could include clubs, restaurants, retail, and residence - perhaps even a movie theatre.
North of that, up to Bloor, it would take a lot of remodeling, occasional demolition and hard work, but the buildings lining the street could be gradually infilled and made to work together to provide a more human and interesting pedestrian experience.
My biggest hopes, though, are the blocks from Wood down to Gerrard. Currently run-down, half parking lots and thoroughly unpleasant, I hope this area sees development that will have high-quality retail spaces at grade that will extend the vibrancy of the Village southward. We desperately need new spaces and new ideas and designs on the street. I hope these new buildings, when they come, will provide it. There's no reason why the area can't provide an urban realm that embraces everything from the low-rent and funky to the chic and new.
Regarding the posts above, I think it's no exaggeration to say the neighbourhood is rather tired looking. The rents are enormously high (comparable to Yorkville, apparently) but a lot of the landlords are absentee or at a distance, so the care for the properties are not great. One look at the crumbling, derelict-looking apartment building at the northeast corner of Church and Wellesley is a first great example. Also, the amount of usable retail space is sharply ended at Alexander street at the south end, and becomes straggly and full of gaps north of Gloucester. The side streets leading off Church also don't have any retail on them. Part of the problem is that of the existing or desirable retail, there just isn't that much of it to go to, so the same spaces get used and re-used time after time. It's limited. Walking southward from Bloor to Dundonald (where things start to pick up a bit) is unpleasant (especially in winter). The stretch of Church between Carlton and Gerrard is downright ugly.
There is no major bar in the area that has been designed from the ground up. There is no major new restaurant in the area that is a brand new design. A quick look on google at "new bar designs" will show you what we're missing. The gay clubs here are generally decorated and designed with the same bare minimum of care that they were pre-liberation, when they could be easily raided and shut down. I wouldn't want all bars to have to be glamour spots, but a walk through the village looking to go clubbing will show you a lot of slipshod dumps. The condo boom has not warmed to the east side of the city quite the same way it has warmed to the west. Despite all the construction going on in the city, Church Street from Gerrard to Bloor looks more or less as it did in the early '90's. It's socially one thing to appreciate Church-Wellesley for it's social role in gay liberation, but aesthetically, urbanistically and architecturally, it's seedy.
The high concentration of social housing in the area is one factor - a quick look at an aerial view of the village neighbourhood shows a lot of low-income housing concentrated in the area. This is an area that tends to lacks disposable income. Add that to the higher amount poverty services, shelters and low income housing that has been rooted in the immediate downtown east area, and I think it'd be fair to say it has affected investments and new construction in the area. I think the political nature of the neighbourhood and its attendant insularity may have have contributed to this as well. I think that downtown east of Yonge is disproportionately burdened with poverty compared to other parts of the city.
It might sound inflammatory to say so, but I believe the neighbourhood needs more people with money in and around it. It needs new development around it quite badly, and a great deal of urban mending to what exists.
Now before I get hung out to dry, I do believe the city needs to keep up and continue to improve its social services, and radically expand the amount of affordable housing available, as should the Province. However, I think it should be distributed a bit more evenly and carefully throughout the city. Anyhoo...
I wouldn't want to see the village gentrified and sterilized. That would be horrible. However, it could definitely use some new urban polish and glam in areas it hasn't had it before.
My big hopes are that the block from Wellesley to Dundonald (on the west side) would make way for a new, polished and sophisticated development - one that could include clubs, restaurants, retail, and residence - perhaps even a movie theatre.
North of that, up to Bloor, it would take a lot of remodeling, occasional demolition and hard work, but the buildings lining the street could be gradually infilled and made to work together to provide a more human and interesting pedestrian experience.
My biggest hopes, though, are the blocks from Wood down to Gerrard. Currently run-down, half parking lots and thoroughly unpleasant, I hope this area sees development that will have high-quality retail spaces at grade that will extend the vibrancy of the Village southward. We desperately need new spaces and new ideas and designs on the street. I hope these new buildings, when they come, will provide it. There's no reason why the area can't provide an urban realm that embraces everything from the low-rent and funky to the chic and new.
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Mississauga Slim
Active Member
The stretch of Carlton from Jarvis to Yonge is the Motorized Wheelchair District.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Thernan
Active Member
THe medical clinic/doctor's offices at Church and Carleton, along with the pharmacy, blood lab and all tenants are relocating over to the building next to Fran's, essentially emptying that building.
How much do you want to bet that a developer has bought (or is trying to buy) that property, Zippers and the parking lot behind the two buildings for a new condo project?
How much do you want to bet that a developer has bought (or is trying to buy) that property, Zippers and the parking lot behind the two buildings for a new condo project?
Thernan
Active Member
CanadianNational
Senior Member
Here's a quick map of the Church-Wellesley neighbourhood, from Bloor to Gerrard.
The red rectangles are open parking lots.
The blue rectangles are co-ops, or, assisted housing (that I know of).
The green lines are vacant park space (or private property) that follows the street.
The orange lines are for buildings fronts that although they may be active, are closed to public access, private, or non-retail.
The yellow lines are for buildings that show actual blank walls to the street.
All in all, you can see there are long stretches where the way the street engages with people is private to uninviting, or even alienating.
As for social housing and poverty-level incomes, it's not simply Church Street - it's the entire downtown core east of Yonge to River street, between Bloor and Queen. There are a large number of shelters, rooming houses, detoxes and make-do rental in this area. The needs of the citizenry has kept alongside the services here, over a long period of time - in a long tangle of market forces, government intervention, social movements and individual needs. As my ninety-one year-old neighbour said to me, "This area will never quite improve. It was the red light district! My mother used to forbid me to come down here." That was in the 1930's.
She also added that there's always been an unspoken agreement at City Hall that downtown east of Yonge is basically the place where you put the woebegones and down-and-outs, etc. I don't know if that's true, but it makes for a good story.
What keeps Church street from notably improving are the economic conditions of downtown east of Yonge (real and perceived).
I'm certainly not advocating that people be shuffled out. Many people call this area home.
However, I think over time, the condition might be improved gradually. Regent Park's redo is a quick example, but there are gentler and better ways. Even if the current income of the area's population stayed the same, large improvements could be made all around by simply building lovely new buildings and enterprises into the area into places that currently do not have them - all those surface parking lots, for example. Improving the architectural experience of the street with a largely social, commercial and inviting sidewalk level would be a good idea as well.
In the end, I think the architectural problems of the street - along with it's shabby public realm and lack of new, impressive venues - are more of a liability to it than any problem with the economic makeup of the area. I just look at Loblaws - Ryerson at MLG, and how one great new architectural event (and good food store) has lightened up that entire corner, and made it a great place to go to. I'd like to see more architectural events of this caliber show up in the new construction that will eventually come to the street.
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