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Can't we all just get along? The car, bicycle, skateboard, pedestrian et al debate

James said:
Ah but alas, how do we change this mentality of drivers in the city? As I mentioned in my original post, "nothing is going to truly change until our attitude and tolerance of each other on the road as individuals change, regardless of what mode of transportation one is utilizing". I see the selfishness and sense of entitlement amongst drivers every day. I also see it in cyclists and pedestrians. I certainly agree that the severity of the actions of someone in a vehicle is much graver than someone on foot, hence the consequences and damages are much more serious, but we need to all go back to basics. The root of the matter is respecting others who share the roads and sidewalks. My agreement that licensing and courses can make a difference is a way to get everybody to start thinking and re-thinking about others on the road.
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The root of the matter is respecting others. Period.

Our civilization has devolved into a selfish me-first place to the point where it's absolutely shocking when a complete stranger actually does something nice for you. Cyclists, pedestrians and drivers disrespecting each other is only one symptom of the problem. Given that licencing drivers hasn't stopped them from being assholes to others that use or cross the road I find it unlikely that licencing cyclists is going to improve the situation much. Short of an overhaul of civilization, if you want to get people to start thinking about everyone else who uses the road then use existing laws to fine everyone who doesn't into oblivion. Once it becomes clear that if they don't respect others who use the road then they will no longer be able to afford to use it themselves, people will fall into line.
 
James said:
Ah but alas, how do we change this mentality of drivers in the city? As I mentioned in my original post, "nothing is going to truly change until our attitude and tolerance of each other on the road as individuals change, regardless of what mode of transportation one is utilizing". I see the selfishness and sense of entitlement amongst drivers every day. I also see it in cyclists and pedestrians. I certainly agree that the severity of the actions of someone in a vehicle is much graver than someone on foot, hence the consequences and damages are much more serious, but we need to all go back to basics. The root of the matter is respecting others who share the roads and sidewalks. My agreement that licensing and courses can make a difference is a way to get everybody to start thinking and re-thinking about others on the road.
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We change that mentality by making them realise that driving is not a human right. We put in bike-lanes instead of parking, enlarge sidewalks, and put streetcars in the middle of roads. People who grew up where cars aren't given the ridiculous preferential treatment they get in N. America don't have this 'sharing the road complex'.

Yesterday a car honked at me at Kensignton so that I'd move out of the sidewalk so it could park with its wheels on the curve. I mean, what the fuck! When does a pedestrian or cyclist EVER does something like that?

People I bike/walk/ride transit along with are much more pleasant and polite than people I drive with. They also don't go out of their way to put me in dangerous situations. Last time I almost collided with another bike we just both said 'sorry' and moved on. Last time I almost got run over by a car it just honked and broke the speed limit as it fled. As a driver I'm very accommodating of everyone, but other drivers make it very difficult for me.
 
ttk77 said:
I can go along with requiring bicycles to have a licence plate, but requiring the cyclists themselves to be licensed is ridiculous. Would we ban children from riding their bicycles until they're old enough to pass a cycling road test? If not, then why would we start requiring licences at a certain age when presumably peoples' maturity/responsibility/capability in riding their bicycles improves as they get older?
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Under 16, no license required and no access to bicycle lanes - only a helmet required on off-road trails, cycling around the neighbourhood etc.

What about visitors to the city? Do we make them take a course and pass a road test before they're allowed to ride their bikes in our city?
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Visitors using Bixi must read and sign off on a document from the Bixi website when registering and print a copy of a temporary license that they keep on them while cycling. Bixi plates all say "BIXI".

The desire to licence cyclists is just a sour grapes response from selfish drivers who don't want to share the road.
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I happily sold my car in the mid 90's, I was paying $140/month back THEN to park + insurance & such, I was walking to work & my partner had a car. Except for three or four times a year when I see my family up north I now rent a car. I'm a cyclist and I've suggested bicycle licensing on this board several times in the past few years so there's no sour grapes with me!
 
dt_toronto_geek said:
Under 16, no license required and no access to bicycle lanes - only a helmet required on off-road trails, cycling around the neighbourhood etc.
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And the same adult riding around the neighborhood with his kid would required the licence? I personally find it very strange/backwards that we might allow children to do something freely while a more capable/experienced adult is required to have a licence. As ridiculous as it sounds, using the same analogy, what about a child being permitted to drive around the neighborhood so long as they don't drive on the freeway?

dt_toronto_geek said:
Visitors using Bixi must read and sign off on a document from the Bixi website when registering and print a copy of a temporary license that they keep on them while cycling. Bixi plates all say "BIXI".
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And do we prohibit visitors from bringing their own bicycles? There are plenty of great trails in and around the city and bixi has a time limit last I checked, and they're not really built for that kind of use.

I understand the desire to make people more accountable, but surely you must see the complexities involved. How would you pay for the bureaucracy involved? The cost to the government would be on the same order of magnitude as providing auto licencing, but few people would tolerate having to shell out that much just to ride a bike. Along with licencing comes more legal responsibility, so what about insurance?

Even if we were to require licences and people were willing to accept that requirement, they'd do nothing without improved enforcement. Enforcement is the ultimate issue here since we already have all the laws in place to hold drivers, cyclists and pedestrians accountable. We don't need any new laws or added bureaucracy.
 
ttk77 said:
We don't need any new laws or added bureaucracy.
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Amen to that. Every extra government layer of bureaucracy would cost taxpayers more... and bureaucracy, above all, loves to perpetuate itself.

In much the same vein, more aggressive enforcement of existing bylaws would also cost a great deal more.

What's needed is profound, authentic, reliable and mutual respect between drivers, cyclists, longboarders, bladers, and pedestrians.

Good luck with that.
 
The City has studied and even implemented bicycle licensing in the past and addresses many of the issues here.

It should also be noted that licensing wouldn't necessarily provide any benefits - in terms of identification - beyond what is already in the HTA.

Section 218 of the Highway Traffic Act (HTA)

A police officer who finds any person contravening any provision under this Act [HTA] or any municipal by-law regulating traffic while in charge of a bicycle may require that that person stop and to provide identification of himself or herself.
Every person who is required to stop, by a police officer acting under Subsection (1), shall stop and identify himself or herself to the police officer.
For the purposes of this Section, giving one's correct name and address is sufficient identification.
A police officer may arrest without warrant any person who does not comply with Subsection (2).
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I would definitely agree that laws regarding sidewalk cycling should absolutely be better and more consistently enforced. Perhaps one way to do this in concert with the above section is to confiscate the bicycle until identification can be produced, then charge the person if necessary. This would require the removal of the third bit though.
 
In short the problem is that everyone is looking for someone to blame. The answer is much simpler and requires no debate. The problem is that I am the problem. No law or physical infrastructure nor lesson nor punishment can change this. I am the problem unless everyone on the road is my responsibility.
 
A shocking number Torontonians are small-minded pricks. I've cycled extensively in cities in many parts of the world and I'd have to say the most unforgiving red-necked drivers are right here in Toronto. I'd bet it's the same lot that voted for Ford.
 
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Regarding traffic laws, it's virtually impossible, and often not safe for a cyclist to follow all traffic rules to the letter of the law.
 
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