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Canada, U.S. quietly sign mutual military aid pact

I don't think anyone had previous experience with the use of civil aircraft for mass murder.

well, we managed to put people on the moon without ever having any previous experience of going to the moon. besides, what the heck are the simulations and exercises for? i think there's too much people in high positions of importance who shouldn't be there. just look at some of the people appointed by the bush administration who shouldn't even be handing out hamburgers let alone leading their departments. one giant blunder that comes to mind is "brownie" from fema.

cronyism knows no boundaries and is a major factor in government incompetence. government isn't a country club.
 
Go listen to the NORAD tapes, congress did, I think it was Vanity Fair who published information about the reaction of NORAD on that dreadful day. NORAD was involved in an excercise on 911 that proved to render them totally incompetent on some very important actions. Here is a link where you can actually hear these guys in their folly but I am sure you must have known all this as you come across as an expert compared to me.......so you say. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/040806laxattitude.htm

You didn't read my earlier post did you? If you want to be a true believer in conspiracy theories, be my guest. But if you actually want to talk about factual information, actually read up on some facts.

I'd like to compare your level of competence on air defence with the people at NORAD. It would be amusing.
 
well, we managed to put people on the moon without ever having any previous experience of going to the moon. besides, what the heck are the simulations and exercises for? i think there's too much people in high positions of importance who shouldn't be there. just look at some of the people appointed by the bush administration who shouldn't even be handing out hamburgers let alone leading their departments. one giant blunder that comes to mind is "brownie" from fema.

cronyism knows no boundaries and is a major factor in government incompetence. government isn't a country club.

Prometheus, carefully planning to put people on the moon over the period of a decade is quite different than anticipating exactly when a terrorist action is to take place, and assuming what the exact outcome will be (and putting people on the moon was not without its unique and deadly surprises).

Up until that point, the the typical initial approach to a hijacking was to understand the situation and negotiate so as to reduce risk to passengers. Even the passengers followed the typical approach of not upsetting or attacking the hijackers - and did so only upon discovering that another airliner had been used as a means to mass murder.

As much as people would want to believe that government has a plan for every possible type of event, the fact is this ain't so. This is impossible to do. Initializing plans and/or planning a response takes time, and unfortunately that was one thing not available on that day. The key response after the event was to finally shut down the entire system which served as a means to absolutely maximize further threat reduction.

No, not perfect; but nothing ever is. Governments are systems made up of many people, and if you can find a means to introduce perfection into that, come and show me the miracle.
 
As much as people would want to believe that government has a plan for every possible type of event, the fact is this ain't so. This is impossible to do. Initializing plans and/or planning a response takes time, and unfortunately that was one thing not available on that day. The key response after the event was to finally shut down the entire system which served as a means to absolutely maximize further threat reduction.

No, not perfect; but nothing ever is. Governments are systems made up of many people, and if you can find a means to introduce perfection into that, come and show me the miracle.

i know. but in many governments, including the US, there is lots of room for improvement. people in important positions (where lives are at risk) shouldn't be appointed just because they know someone. if the head of FEMA got his job because of his contacts and had no qualifications, just imagine how rampant the problem of cronyism must be in the system.
 
I agree with you, but in many respects the point you are trying to make is unrelated to the issue being covered in the previous posts.

With respect to FEMA, however, the situation I believe you are alluding to is related to Hurricane Katrina. It's actually only the tip of the iceberg. Studies dating back to the 1970's indicated that the flood protection system of New Orleans was incapable of protecting the city against a storm surge of a moderate Hurricane. Katrina was down to a Category Three when it hit that city. So long as no Hurricane hit the city, there was no need to improve the storm surge and flood system. After Katrina, there was.
 
I stated that I did not have the confidence in Norad to justify spending all the cash that we do on their agenda in a nut shell and went on to disclose that there is good information out there about what Norad did and did not do on 911 to support my lack of confidence. Of course I accept that America failed on that day to prevent an act of terror, that it was not some wacked conspiracy of their government but a series of events that are still being unraveled as reasonable truths surface.

Your assumptions that I know little about NORAD leads me to wonder if you think I am some sort of dullard who has not read the newspaper or pick up a book that addressed the topic(s) that I have commented on here. I can accept disagreement. And assure you that my opinion is generally well informed. NORAD being a cold war relic needs to be replaced and if money is to be spent it should not be on NORAD as it exists today "Communication Failure" is wide spread and not just with NORAD.

Any comments on the Vanity Fair piece?
 
First off, you have not mentioned what "agenda" NORAD has. If you are so informed as you have assumed, maybe you want to take a moment and spell out what exactly that agenda is. Otherwise, the purpose of NORAD is to protect North American air space from outside threats. The original situation surrounding 9/ll was internal and originally the responsibility of the FAA. In this situation NORAD could act only when civil authorities called on it, and military aircraft can only fire live weapons when given express permission from civil authorities.

If you actually read the article you posted (which is from a pretty slanted site, but you clearly believe that it is value-neutral) it suggests that NORAD officials were not thrilled by the actions of Navy ATC. In other words, NORAD did not fail at anything but were in fact not allegedly thrilled by the attitude of Navy controllers.

Your assumptions that I know little about NORAD leads me to wonder if you think I am some sort of dullard who has not read the newspaper or pick up a book that addressed the topic(s) that I have commented on here.

Did anyone call you a dullard, or are you once again making another uninformed assumption? News papers and books are fine, but sometimes writers insinuate their own agendas into the works in order to emphasize aspects of their own politics. It may look easy to deal with emergency situations from the outside, but assessing such a situation is difficult. The first problems is acquiring accurate information from which to determine a useful course of action. The timeframe in which 9/11 took place in was quite short and the distances in which the events were happening was quite large. It is very easy to Monday morning quarterback, but the reality of such a situation is quite different than from what you assume.

At the period of the World Trade Centre attacks, NORAD was still undergoing a long process of post Cold War reorganization. It's primary responsibility was to detect and identify threats over the horizon - primarily missile launches, space weapons or unidentified aircraft approaches within the definitions of N.A. airspace - and to respond. The responsibility of dealing with hijackings is a civilian one - until civilian authorities deem it necessary to call on the military for action. No one was expecting suicide attacks on that day, and there certainly was no precedent or direct evident threat of such an attack until the first one took place. The next problem was to then deal with thousands of airliners aloft at the time - both in North American airspace, approaching it and leaving it. NORAD does not control or direct civilian aircraft. This might be useful for you to know.

The link from your posted article to Vanity Fair was dead.
 
So did you read and listen to what was pulished by Vanity fair or not with respect to NORAD?
As far as NORAD not directing or controlling civilian aircraft.....are you kidding me, did you really feel you needed to tell me this? The fact of the matter is that we waste a great deal of money on a whole lot of nothing in terms of being protected by these agencies that are far from being as competent as they claim when lobbying for more cash and control and failed to protect North American air space because why? Make all the excuses you want for NORAD on that faithful day but in the end they were practicing for attacks while attacks were in fact happening and this confused many many people who tried to deal with what was happening in the sky that day. There was and is nothing they can say for themselves other than better luck next time. They are paid and directed to protect our air space, they didn't. I know over site is lacking. Do I need to quote the 911 commission report and how it was contradicted by the Vanity Fair expose to convince you of the obvious? The evidence is disheartening.
Projection is rarely a good coping strategy.
 
I have a copy of the edition of Vanity Fair that investigated the contradiction of what was said to the 911 commission and what in fact actually was caught on audio tape and later admitted to. As far as your comment about the slanted site, this site is rather slanted as well I think. Dare I return to find myself blocked from it?
 
So did you read and listen to what was pulished by Vanity fair or not with respect to NORAD?

I told you that the link to the Vanity Fair article was dead. Besides, is Vanity Fair an expert publication with respect to the operations of NORAD? Does the article present the definitive history of what happened that morning?

As far as NORAD not directing or controlling civilian aircraft.....are you kidding me, did you real feel you needed to tell me this?

Yes, because it is clear from your earlier posts that you did not know this fact.

The fact of the matter is that we waste a great deal of money on a whole lot of nothing in terms of being protected by these agencies

It is your opinion that they waste money; other people think that NORAD is a very sound defence investment. More recently, much of the money for NORAD has been spent on upgrades in technology.

... are far from being as competent as they claim when lobbying for more cash and control, but failed to protect North American air space because why?

I explained to you something of the processes involved. Your insinuation that NORAD was incompetent is misplaced - unless you expect them to read minds. No one was expecting suicide/mass murder attacks using civilian aircraft. The events of 9/11 were within the jurisdiction of civilian control and were originally viewed as hijackings. NORAD exists and operates primarily to deal with military threats. You appear to not understand this distinction.

Also, do understand that in times of peace military aircraft operating in exercises are unarmed - unless there is a very specific live fire exercise under way. Even so, had a military aircraft been close to one of the airliners in question (none were), there would have been no clear way to know whether that airliner was under hostile control, and the pilot could not fire a weapon without clearance. Moreover, NORAD commanders could give no such order to fire weapons on their own; they would require appropriate civilian authorization first.

The amount of money that NORAD receives is decided entirely by government. Following the end of the Cold War there was a considerable reduction in funding and restructuring of NORAD. The events of 9/11 brought about an emphasis on being prepared to deal with emerging threats.

Make all the excuses you want for NORAD on that faithful day but in the end they were practicing for attacks while attacks were in fact happening and this confused many many people who tried to deal with what was happening in the sky that day. There was and is nothing they can say for themselves other than better luck next time.

You heap scorn on NORAD. Did it occur to you that the people to blame for all these deaths are those individuals who took control of the aircraft? You have not mentioned them. Surprise attacks are confusing; they are meant to be. The attackers don't exactly announce their intentions in advance either. That would defeat their purpose.

Also, this may be a big shock to you, but there are many problems related to the idea of shooting down civilian airliners without clear evidence that they are under hostile control. Maybe you would do so without thinking about it, but had that possibility actually arisen, I bet you'd be here berating the military for the large numbers of civilian deaths.

As far as your comment about the slanted site, this site is rather slanted as well I think.

I find this site filled with a diversity of opinions. Prisonplanet is one of those websites that has a title that essentially explains its governing attitude to things.

What I find mostly amusing about your posts is that you have not considered what the alternatives ought to have been. What exactly was supposed to happen that day? Think it through and try to avoid facile or baseless conclusions. I'll comment on any shortcomings.
 
You mean "valid" as in well-founded, sound, reasonable, rational, logical, justifiable, defensible, cogent, effective, potent, convincing, credible, forceful, strong, solid, or weighty?

The assertions that you have posted here are none of the above. In short, there is nothing "valid" about your statements.
 
Of course not as they are contrary to yours. LOL You are becoming too predictable. Why don't you do yourself a favour and back off. Don't torture yourself by reading what I have to say.
 
I don't feel at all tortured when presented with uninformed opinions like yours. It's amusing.

If you feel free to post, I'll free to comment. Tough luck, kiddo.
 
I don't need your agreement with what I have to say to make what I am saying valid.

What was NORAD supposed to do on 9/11?

Is NORAD in charge of airport security? No.

Is NORAD in charge of immigration? No.

Is NORAD in charge of foreign policy? No.

Is NORAD in charge of air traffic control? No.

So of all the possible things NORAD could have done better was to shoot down planes which took off from domestic airports loaded with passengers and got hijacked without announcement. Seeing as the aircraft departed from northeast airports and were headed towards northeast targets that would give NORAD what, 30-45 minutes to work with? Radio problems happen... you don't just shoot down a plane because you loose radio contact. NORAD doesn't even find out what planes are having issues without the FAA telling them. The air traffic control system is complex with a myriad of zones, frequencies, and controllers. You don't find out an aircraft isn't talking to you immediately because once away from the airport pilots only intermittently communicate with controllers. Please tell us, without telling us to read Vanity Fair, what you expected NORAD to accomplish in 30-45 minutes on 9/11 and what you believe NORAD spent money on that was a waste.
 

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