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Beyond that, you have that debate then. Why is it that anything must be set in perpetuity for the rest of our lifetimes? And why do we have to stop all progress now just because we are worried of some debate in the future where it's entirely within our power to control the issue?

sometimes it's not about progress (or profits), but protection. that's where it gets tricky, i think. assume for the moment that the residents of bathurst quay have a genuine, honest-to-god grievance with noise/traffic /pollution and porter wished to amend the tripartite agreement in such a way that would worsen this situation.

directly or indirectly, porter's expansion helps the city. i personally would never dispute that. as such, to the majority of the city, it's a positive development with very little shortcomings. amending the tripartite agreement would be a no-brainer. the residents of bathurst quay, however, are the most affected. it's negative with almost zero upside. their councillor, however, only has one vote. do they have as much right to exist and prosper in that area as porter?

i'm not saying this is occurring with the cs100 issue. i'm just saying that just because the city has a say is not a cause to not worry. nimbyism works both ways.
 
What should influence is us though is the number of jobs this will create right in the 416, the potential economic spinoffs, the number of tourists this could bring in, and the impact on trade with easier facilitation of business travel.

I think that the discussion may be more informed this time. When Porter first started, there was a great deal of opposition, but most people in the city were generally unaware that there was an airport on the waterfront and had no real interest one way or the other.

However, for the past few years, hundreds of thousands of people a year from the Toronto area have been going through the island airport to places in Eastern Canada and the US. Many of these people were flying to places that they might otherwise have driven to (or taken the bus/train) if Porter had not been there. They told there friends that they should try it out.

This time around, the discussion will include a lot of people that have found Porter and the island airport to be a convenient and useful transportation hub.

I would expect that the federal government will go along with whatever the city decides. Many federal employees and MPs use Porter to shuffle between Toronto and Ottawa and are likely to look favourably on any improvement plans. If the feds and city agree, the Port Authority will agree.

So it is up to convincing the city. The downtown councillors have a lot more Porter passengers in their areas this time.
 
assume for the moment that the residents of bathurst quay have a genuine, honest-to-god grievance with noise/traffic /pollution and porter wished to amend the tripartite agreement in such a way that would worsen this situation.
Perhaps now is the time to look a an even larger project, such as adding a bridge, or even moving the whole western gap to the other side of the airport. What if they widened the tunnel, extended it up to Queens Quay (or even the Lakeshore), and made it a vehicle tunnel? That would get a lot of the traffic out of the bathurst quay area.

An even bigger project would bury the Gardiner where the Western Gap is now, with an exit to the island airport and tunnel to Bathurst/Spadina/Lakeshore.

If nothing else, the bathurst and queens quay streetcars should run up to the ferry terminal, making taking public transit rather than a cab more appealing.
 
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Keithz:



That I agree with. Perhaps some kind of grand bargain can be made - in return for modifying the agreement and allowing the use of low noise jets and the required runway extension, perhaps the footprint of the airport should be modified - removal of the 2 shorter runways, transfer of at least a portion of the land (say, beyond 250, 300m south of the main runway) to the city for use as parkland (with reciprocal guarantee that such land will not be utilized in a manner that is detrimental to operation of the airport); that the noise level generated by the jets is monitored for the entire duration that the airport is open at multiple locations under the flightpath; that a hard cap be put in place for the total number of flights per day at the allotted hours.

AoD

Lots of ways to deal with the issues. I would argue that it's time to start view Billy Bishop as a commercial airport and a city asset. Why waste the noise margin supporting Cessna flights which have no cap on them an are just likely to annoy nearby residents? I would suggest that what should be done is to put a plan in place to develop the airport as a commercial airport. My plan:

1) Boot General Aviation from there. Oshawa, Markham and Brampton can meet their needs. Use the freed up noise margin to increase slots to 300 or about 19 per hour. This would still be less annoying than having Cessnas do touch and go every minute. Yet, would improve the commercial utility of the airport.
2) Get rid of two runways. Extend the main 08/26 to 5000 ft. Add EMAS (Engineered Material Arrestor System) at each end to further boost level of protection.
3) Turn the entire north-side into a terminal.
4) Develop the south side as a parking ramp and maintenance facility.
5) Move all surplus south side land to the city for park areas.
6) Restrict operations to those aircraft with an EPNdB of the Q400/CS100 or less.
7) Noise monitoring equipment if required. Though to be honest, once you restrict operations, this is just not necessary. ATC won't clear aircraft who violate the noise guidelines. But if reassures residents...

sometimes it's not about progress (or profits), but protection. that's where it gets tricky, i think. assume for the moment that the residents of bathurst quay have a genuine, honest-to-god grievance with noise/traffic /pollution and porter wished to amend the tripartite agreement in such a way that would worsen this situation.

directly or indirectly, porter's expansion helps the city. i personally would never dispute that. as such, to the majority of the city, it's a positive development with very little shortcomings. amending the tripartite agreement would be a no-brainer. the residents of bathurst quay, however, are the most affected. it's negative with almost zero upside. their councillor, however, only has one vote. do they have as much right to exist and prosper in that area as porter?

i'm not saying this is occurring with the cs100 issue. i'm just saying that just because the city has a say is not a cause to not worry. nimbyism works both ways.

Here's a hypothetical. What if residents of Mississauga or Rexdale start protesting over traffic levels at Pearson and start insisting that they either be reduce or further expansion completely halted? Would you consider those residents holding the region's economic interests hostage (like it or not, aviation is vital to connecting us to the world) to be reasonable? After all, what would their complaints would not be any less reasonable than those of downtown residents. And the noise exposure area of that airport (given the aircraft being operated) is quite substantial.
 
So it is up to convincing the city. The downtown councillors have a lot more Porter passengers in their areas this time.

I would put money that a majority of residents in Vaughan's own ward support Porter. The councillors put up their own positions and then find groups to justify them. They don't really, really care about what's in the interests of the city or their constituents, unless it's absolutely threatening to their political futures.

People might think my viewpoint ridiculous. But it's about as ridiculous as a now-deceased former NDP politician who fought off added transit to the core.
 
The rah rah support Bombardier thing is always a bit two edged. They are a global company, so C-Series will partially be built in Belfast (Shorts) while their rail transportation arm is largely based in Germany arising from their purchase of Adtranz. Also - it's worth looking at Canadian content of the engines if you're taking a nationalistic view of this buy. From what I recall the Q400's PW150 engines were a product of Pratt & Whitney Canada, whereas the PW1000/PurePower line seems to be from the "home office" in the US and overseas partners like MTU, GKN and SIAEC which is the maintenance subsidiary of Singapore Airlines.

EDIT: KeithZ - from what I hear booting GA from the Island is already on the table. Might be a shortsighted view since the pilot organisations across North America aren't shy about pushing political buttons, as was seen when Meigs was vandalised by Mayor Daley.
 
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Keithz:

Response -

1) 19 flights per hour equates to a flight every 3 minutes. If retaining the current number of slots per day is viable commercially, it should stay.

2) How much additional lakefilling beyond the 150 at each end will be required for EMAS?

3/4/5) How much of the space on the south side will be utilized? The amount of surplus transferred must be meaningful.

6) With the additional goal of further decreasing the noise levels as technology becomes available.

7) No harm in monitoring - it's compliance, and besides it gives on the ground knowledge of the actual noise profile instead of modelling and forecasts.

8) Comprehensively review the local transportation needs required to support the increased number of passengers - any improvements deemed necessary should at least be partially borne by the direct beneficiary of this new agreement.

AoD
 
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http://www.torontoport.com/TorontoP...news/BBTCA-NoiseMgmtInterimReport-Feb2010.pdf

You can see the NEF 25 contour for BBA in here. No residential areas in there. And ironically for those who oppose commercial ops at the airport, it's the Cessnas using 15/33 that end up overflying residential areas. Not the Q400s using 08/26.

Compare the Island's NEF contours to Pearson:

http://www.air-fair.org/noise.html
http://www.torontopearson.com/uploa...r_Plan/MP - Chapter 13 - Noise Management.pdf -See page 13.8

Now explain to me why it's in any way, shape or form, fair to say that downtowners (who already live near sources of noise louder than the airport), should have their exposure limited to aircraft noise, while many, many more people in the burbs (who live in quieter areas where aircraft noise is more noticeable) should be exposed even more. All with the net effect on air fares going even higher (if traffic were entirely centralized at Pearson) yielding us lower economic competitiveness, more air pollution (as people tend to drive to Pearson instead of using transit), and even less employment for the region and the city in particular.

We're just lucky that people in the burbs are docile and aren't as vocal as downtowners. They have a substantially better case for arguing against less air traffic passing over them then any downtown resident.
 
Keithz:

The noise contour maps are derived from 2008 Nav Canada records. One would think that there should be updated figures, particularly in light of the increased number of slots in 2012.

AoD
 
EMAS would probably require less lake fill if TC were willing to specify that having it reduced the required stopway length. If Pearson had it on 24L Air France 358 might have ended less destructively.

KeithZ - I don't think the argument that downtowners should be okay with exposure to similar noise to Rexdale under the approaches is one which can or should be productively pursued. Better that downtown sets a low bar and GTAA is pressured to lower theirs too.
 
Here's a hypothetical. What if residents of Mississauga or Rexdale start protesting over traffic levels at Pearson and start insisting that they either be reduce or further expansion completely halted? Would you consider those residents holding the region's economic interests hostage (like it or not, aviation is vital to connecting us to the world) to be reasonable? After all, what would their complaints would not be any less reasonable than those of downtown residents. And the noise exposure area of that airport (given the aircraft being operated) is quite substantial.

my personal opinion... i don't think their complaints are less reasonable nor would i consider their interests as holding the economic interest of the region "hostage".

the airport should be allowed to freely expand up to what are existing limits. if the long-term goal of the government, however, is to radically expand beyond existing limits, which is fine imo, this should be communicated and plans should be put in place to accommodate the residents (compensation, relocation, etc.). i think more thought than now should be given to other forms of transportation that would alleviate some of the air traffic; for example, high-speed rail could alleviate some of the short-hauls to make room for long-hauls. i think if air traffic is projected to go absolutely through the roof, plans for another international airport should be given serious thought or go all out and do the hong kong thing (kai tak to chek lap kok).

i think your suggestions for billy bishop were good.
 
1) 19 flights per hour equates to a flight every 3 minutes. If retaining the current number of slots per day is viable commercially, it should stay.

Flight training today has no limit. I can guarantee you that you are exposed to far, far more than 19 flights an hour today. Today the limit for commercial operations only is 13 flights per hour (or thereabouts). No other traffic is restricted. I'd argue for getting rid of all other traffic at YTZ in exchange for a small boost in the number of commercial slots.

2) How much additional lakefilling beyond the 150 at each end will be required for EMAS?

To be clear, EMAS is absolutely not required. This is a personal interest because I have a strong interest in aviation safety. I believe you can install EMAS in as little as 100 feet on each side of the runway. Obviously this idea is only supportable if the extended runway safety area doesn't end up outside the airport's boundaries. There are existing runway safety areas. You can see them on Google Maps. Today aircraft can actually taxi on them and use them to start their departure. I'd say use the same RSA for an EMAS. You increase safety and restrict runway length to the actual runway since nobody is ever allowed to drive, walk or taxi an aircraft on to the EMAS. It's built and left alone. In essence, it's also puts aircraft further away from airport boundary since nothing can be operated on it.

More about this stuff here.

http://www.esco.zodiacaerospace.com/commercial-systems/faq.php

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=13754

3/4/5) How much of the space on the south side will be utilized? The amount of surplus transferred must be meaningful.

Hard to say exactly. But looking at the airport layout. I would say that roughly speaking most of the land south of runway 06/24 could be transferred. I would call that fairly substantial. The navaid in the middle of the airfield is the challenge to determine the ramp layout on the south side and how much exactly will be transferred. But at a minimum, I'd imagine that the entire southern tip of the triangle (bottom third of 15/33).

6) With the additional goal of further decreasing the noise levels as technology becomes available.

Now you're understanding what I'm getting at. London City is one of the airports that will tremendously benefit from the CSeries. They use a quota count system. If an operator wants to fly in noisier aircraft, they can, but they will end up using more than one slot for that flight. So noise management now becomes a part of the business plan of the operator. Operators are incentivized to fly the quietest aircraft possible. Airlines flying into LCY will be ecstatic to get the CSeries.

I wouldn't advocate for a quota count. This would allow what Westjet wants for example (to be able fly in their noisier 737-600). I would want hard decibel limits. Force the operators to operate the quietest aircraft. And as technology improves, demand higher and higher standards.

7) No harm in monitoring - it's compliance, we besides it gives on the ground knowledge of the actual noise profile instead of modelling and forecasts.

They actually do noise monitoring already. And like I said, ATC at the Island will restrict aircraft based on requirements. The problem today is that they restrict aircraft based on the "no jet" rule not on any actual noise standard. In any event, I would fully support additional monitoring if anybody wants it.

8) Comprehensively review the local transportation needs required to support the increased number of passengers - any improvements deemed necessary should at least be partially borne by the direct beneficiary of this new agreement.


The TPA is making out quite well with 1.9 million passengers last year paying the $20 AIF. I'd get them to fund the entire program. Get them to pay for all necessary improvements on the land side. Not just part of the cost.
 
mettle:

Just a note on Chek Lap Kok - one wouldn't pursue that course unless they're desperate - and in Hong Kong, it's the utter lack of any appropriate site. That's really not applicable to Toronto.

AoD
 
Keithz:

Response -

1) 19 flights per hour equates to a flight every 3 minutes. If retaining the current number of slots per day is viable commercially, it should stay.

2) How much additional lakefilling beyond the 150 at each end will be required for EMAS?

3/4/5) How much of the space on the south side will be utilized? The amount of surplus transferred must be meaningful.

6) With the additional goal of further decreasing the noise levels as technology becomes available.

7) No harm in monitoring - it's compliance, and besides it gives on the ground knowledge of the actual noise profile instead of modelling and forecasts.

8) Comprehensively review the local transportation needs required to support the increased number of passengers - any improvements deemed necessary should at least be partially borne by the direct beneficiary of this new agreement.

AoD

I think that's the best way to go. They need to be very specific on the type of plane and specs allowed and the number of flights etc.
 
Keithz:

3/4/5) Personally I would have preferred an extension of the current boundary at the inner harbour to the point where it intersects 15/33, then have the boundary extended along 15/33 northward as far as possible to try and include as much of the area behind Hanlan beach.

AoD
 

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