Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

^But however will they do that? [/mock curiosity]

Jeez, it sure is a lucky coincidence that they recently started filling in the lake at the eastern end of the runway. [/mock naivete]

At least I can be glad that everyone who questioned my previous assertions on this point will now apologize and admit that the Toronto Port Authority is a bought-and-paid-for public body that exists to further the ends of a private business, rather than to guard the public trust. [/mock optimism re: human nature]
 
the Toronto Port Authority is a bought-and-paid-for public body that exists to further the ends of a private business, rather than to guard the public trust. [/mock optimism re: human nature]

How is keeping this particular plane of the runway guarding public trust?

If it is in line with required noise and environmental limits, they should encourage it's introduction to the core. Providing the public with services they demand would, be in my opinion, a laudable goal of the Port Authority.

From the Port Authority Web Site
Mission
To effectively manage the Port of Toronto, Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport, and the Outer Harbour Marina as self-sustaining businesses, allowing us to reinvest funds into transportation infrastructure, marine safety, environmental protection and community programming.

Vision
To be a vital, solution-oriented, Toronto-focused manager of key waterfront assets that is responsive to the City of Toronto, its people, and our common aspirations for a vibrant, diverse and prosperous community.

It sounds to me that allowing this valuable addition to the Porter fleet will be in line with the goals and duties of the Authority.

Personally I'd like to see services added to Miami, Los Angeles and Dallas. Maybe a vehicle such as this could kick start those destinations.
 
Well I may be eating my words. The range of the c-series planes can put porter safely into many carribean sun destinations. Combine with the company's new porter escapes vacation division could we potentially be seeing travel to these winter sun spots from the island?
 
How is keeping this particular plane of the runway guarding public trust?

If it is in line with required noise and environmental limits, they should encourage it's introduction to the core. Providing the public with services they demand would, be in my opinion, a laudable goal of the Port Authority.

From the Port Authority Web Site


It sounds to me that allowing this valuable addition to the Porter fleet will be in line with the goals and duties of the Authority.

Personally I'd like to see services added to Miami, Los Angeles and Dallas. Maybe a vehicle such as this could kick start those destinations.

I'm not talking about outcomes (i.e. whether to allow jets), I'm talking about process. The TPA should be forthright about its plans rather than pretending to do one thing and actually doing another, so as to shield itself and Porter from public scrutiny.

But the TPA knows that if it was forthright there would be public outcry, so it hides its activities. That's all I'm talking about.
 
If it is true that the C100's well be stationed at the Island look for the near term permanent closure of the North-South 15/33 runway so that Porter can relocate its service/maintenance facility from Sudbury to the Island.
 
These planes don't really have the range to get to the Carribbean - the maxium range only reaches Bahama's, Florida, Cuba and barely Cancun. Everything else would need a stopover to refill the engines. Oh - is there an official copy of this moratorium somewhere? I'm wondering if outright bans Jets.. or just bans noise at a certain level. The latter could of started this long running though that Jets are banned - when really its only noisy jets.
 
These planes don't really have the range to get to the Carribbean - the maxium range only reaches Bahama's, Florida, Cuba and barely Cancun. Everything else would need a stopover to refill the engines. Oh - is there an official copy of this moratorium somewhere? I'm wondering if outright bans Jets.. or just bans noise at a certain level. The latter could of started this long running though that Jets are banned - when really its only noisy jets.

Sorry the C100's have a range of 5,463 km (2,950 nmi) - that is easily Toronto to St Lucia on a full tank with 1/4 to spare....
 
Sorry the C100's have a range of 5,463 km (2,950 nmi) - that is easily Toronto to St Lucia on a full tank with 1/4 to spare....

Range from short runways like London City (which has a longer runway than YTZ) is reportedly 2,778 km.
 
Are there any impediments to expanding the runway to the west rather than eastwards?
 
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These planes don't really have the range to get to the Carribbean - the maxium range only reaches Bahama's, Florida, Cuba and barely Cancun. Everything else would need a stopover to refill the engines. Oh - is there an official copy of this moratorium somewhere? I'm wondering if outright bans Jets.. or just bans noise at a certain level. The latter could of started this long running though that Jets are banned - when really its only noisy jets.

I will go looking when I have time. I know they are posted at Community AIR's website. What is interesting, IIRC, is that Community AIR's two arguments against the Q400's are that they 1) should not be classified as turboprop planes in the way things like pipers and other small commercial airliners are (also the Q400's STOL capabilities) and 2) The Q400's noise exceeds the limits permitted by the tripartite agreement. So aside from the C-Series not being a small commercial airliner in the sense of point 1 above, if the C-Series are indeed quieter than the Q400's than what other grounds does CAIR have to be against the C-Series. Particularly if the tripartite agreement doesn't make specific mention of jets but rather of "small commercial airliners" and "noise profiles"

I'm not tired so I went looking and found the agreement: It specifically identifies Jet powered aircraft as prohibited from the Island airport. So there's that. Although someone mentioned that the engines used on the C-Series are a slightly different type of Jet engine???

here is the link
 
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I will go looking when I have time. I know they are posted at Community AIR's website. What is interesting, IIRC, is that Community AIR's two arguments against the Q400's are that they 1) should not be classified as turboprop planes in the way things like pipers and other small commercial airliners are (also the Q400's STOL capabilities) and 2) The Q400's noise exceeds the limits permitted by the tripartite agreement. So aside from the C-Series not being a small commercial airliner in the sense of point 1 above, if the C-Series are indeed quieter than the Q400's than what other grounds does CAIR have to be against the C-Series. Particularly if the tripartite agreement doesn't make specific mention of jets but rather of "small commercial airliners" and "noise profiles"

I'm not tired so I went looking and found the agreement: It specifically identifies Jet powered aircraft as prohibited from the Island airport. So there's that. Although someone mentioned that the engines used on the C-Series are a slightly different type of Jet engine???

here is the link

The tripartite agreement specifically prohibits any "jet" aircraft with the exception of MEDEVAC flights.

"jet-powered aircraft" means any aircraft which on landing or takeoff is powered
by one or more, turbo-jet, fan jet or any other type of jet engine. For greater
certainty an aircraft powered by turbo prop engines shall not be deemed to be a
jet-powered aircraft."


http://communityair.org/briefing/docs/briefing8-tripartite.pdf

I had mentioned that the engine technology on the CSeries is new. It is a "geared" fan however it would still be "jet-powered" under the above definition. Of course a turbo-prop could be considered "jet powered" so for "greater certainty" they added the clause that a turbo prop is not deemed to be "jet powered".

The tripartite agreement has been amended before. Originally only STOL aircraft were permitted. It was amended to allow DASH-8 aircraft which are not considered STOL to use the airport. It was also amended to permit construction of a tunnel so I don't see why it can't be amended to allow CSeries operations.

Of course there will be strong opposition from certain corners. This will put Olivia Chow in a very difficult position. In the past she opposed the airport and vowed to kill it. Today the Island Airport pumps $2 Billion into the Toronto economy and is a huge source of jobs both direct and indirectly at Bombardier Downsview (the largest industrial employer inside Toronto). I don't know how any politician can be opposed to these changes. The success of the CSeries is crucial to Bombardier - Quebec's most important company. Hard to imagine an NDP transportation coming out against something that is so vital to Quebec's interests!
 
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The person cheering the C-Series order the most is Olivia Chow. This is a great wedge issue for her to fire up her mayoral campaign when she finally drops the coy act. YTZ was close to being deemed "settled" in Toronto, now this is going to shake it up again.
 
NIMBYs won't care if they're quieter than the Q400s.

Of course not. It's just like the NIMBYs crying crocodile tears for the striking employees. They'd actually rather see them in the unemployment line with their employer out of business.

If the NIMBYs actually cared about noise, they'd be pushing for controlled noise profiles and noise exposure limits. Something akin to what you see at other city-centre airports (like at London City). In reality, the NIMBYs dont want "jets" because they always thought that restricting jets from the Island would prevent the realization of a commercially viable airline there, eventually leading to the airport's demise through financial unsustainability. They are pissed that Porter has proved them wrong.

And now that there are jets coming out that are as quiet or quieter than the Q400, their faux concern over noise is about to exposed for what it is: absolute opposition to the airport. They want to sink this piece of infrastructure that makes both tourism and business easier in Toronto just so they can hear the streetcars screeching by.

Regardless of rules/laws/agreements......could it even operate at Billy Bishop?

According to wiki (so normal accuracy caveats apply)

Bombardier released the following reduced performance specifications, regarding operations from urban airports with short runways and steep approaches, like London City Airport.
Urban Operations
CS100
Max takeoff weight 53,060*kg (117,000*lb)
Max landing weight 49,895*kg (110,000*lb)
Maximum cargo payload 3,629*kg (8,000*lb)
Maximum payload (total) 13,676*kg (30,150*lb)
Max range 2,778*km (1,500*nmi)
Take off run at MTOW 1,219*m (3,999*ft)
Landing field length at MLW 1,341*m (4,400*ft)


Isn't the longest runway at YTZ shorter than that?

It's the take off run at maximum take off weight and its the landing field length at maximum landing weight. In reality, because of the length of the runway, Porter won't be operating them anywhere near MTOW.

As for the MLW restriction, that can be overcome. Planes hardly ever arrive back at MLW, unless they are in an emergency. Porter could restrict aircraft loading such that planes will always be able to land at YTZ. Or their crew could burn fuel, dump fuel or divert to Pearson in the event of an emergency while at MLW.

Realistically, it's balanced field length that determines the aircraft's payload in a runway limited situation. In this case, I think they'll be close to the LCY limit of 1500nm. And that would allow them this:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?DU=mi&MS...fw,+atl,+stl,+mia,+hav,+yyt,+NAS&R=1500nm@ytz

Sure....you could do that but these planes cost a lot more than Q400s so shy buy them (and introduce higher training/maint/etc costs by operating a varied fleet) if you are just gonna limit how they are used.

I think they will, as you say, use them for growth elsewhere.......either go more places from Ottawa and Montreal or create Porter West.

Introducing a new type may be onerous. But if Porter needs it to grow they have no choice. The CS100 gives them the range to cover most of the continent from YTZ. It also allows them to scale up capacity on some routes without increasing costs substantially.

As for Porter West. I doubt that. It'd be suicide to go up directly against Westjet or Air Canada at their hubs with 1/5 of the airplanes, a less established brand and no real network beyond YTZ to speak of.
 
^Sorry dowlingm, but I'm with Peepers on this in terms of its political implications, especially for Chow mayoral campaign. I think Miller was successful on the island airport bridge issue because he was showing principled leadership, not necessarily because a majority of Torontonians wanted YTZ shut down. Things have changed in the past 10 years -- Porter is here and generally well liked, people are afraid to do anything that could be cast as "bad for business" and the pedestrian tunnel will open in a year or two. I would imagine that Porter won't even need to buy city council votes to get the tripartite agreement amended to allow jets. Expanding the runway might be a little more contentious. It would surprise me if a runway expansion were exempt from environmental assessment, even under the new neutered federal enviro assessment act.

I agree that this is a wedge issue, but I think plays more to the strengths of the right wing parties, not Chow. I would like to be wrong about that, but clearly I would be expecting too much of the electorate to get angry enough about the Toronto Port Authority's deviousness for their allied politicians to pay a price at the polls.

The one wild card is the provinicial government. Obviously Hudak would go along, and would probably like to build a superhighway through the annex to get there. But how does it play out if the Liberals stick around? I doubt they would be outright obstructionist, but they might insist on a full EA, the results of which might not be favourable for Porter/the TPA.
 
The person cheering the C-Series order the most is Olivia Chow. This is a great wedge issue for her to fire up her mayoral campaign when she finally drops the coy act. YTZ was close to being deemed "settled" in Toronto, now this is going to shake it up again.

I'd be willing to bet that most people outside the core actually favour YTZ expansion. Running on opposition to the airport now will work as poorly for her as subways worked well for Rob Ford.
 

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