Barcelona’s Metro Continues Its Expansion at a Relatively Cheap Price

[kettal]

Why do we even bother to have threads in this forum if they all degenerate to the same circular debate?

 

[kettal]

But it explains why even a 5x cost shouldn't rule out subway entirely as TC has.

Do we now look up to Spain for economic advice? Need I remind you that the country is on the brink of economic collapse?

 

[nfitz]

And they aren't spending that little.

6.5 billion euros for 30 miles = 8.7 billion CAD for 48 km = CAD 181.25 M/km

While that's cheaper than us, their spending commitment would have bought about 29km of subway over here.

Though that's with 1 Euro worth about CAN$1.33. The Euro is at record low levels, and much of the work was completed years ago. The project was approved in 2000, and construction began in 2002. Even if you go back only a couple of years, 1 Euro was worth CAN$1.60 (it was even higher earlier). Using that rate then the project would be CAN$10.4 billion, or CAN$217 million/km. Given our Sheppard subway completed in 2002 was CAN$180 million/km the prices don't seem that different when you account for inflation and when expenditures were actually done. Particularly given the lower cost of labour in Spain.

Given that the Barcelona metro doesn't seem that much different in price, and that it is years behind schedule, with numerous accidents (I assume you all remember that huge collapse a few years ago), I'm not sure it's a great example for us. It certainly doesn't seem to prove it can be done much cheaper!

Cheaper than New York City Second Avenue Line ... that's estimated at US$17 billion for 13.7 km. That's US$ 1,241 million/km.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

While that is all interesting, it does not explain the difference in construction costs.

Most of the difference - if there is a real difference, I mean, you can tweak statistics and numbers a lot if you want to - is probably quite easily explained...somewhat cheaper labour, economies of scale (no reinventing the wheel with every project), construction companies that have their work down to almost a science, I think I've read things about soil differences, perhaps they're not building enormous bus terminals at every station, and on and on.

 

[Second_in_pie]

And if there is a huge difference that smarter tunneling couldn't fix, a large part of our subways could be built using alternative building techniques. If our subway tunnels had to cost $300 million/km, alternative building techniques on large portions of all the lines would surely bring the cost down to close to what Barcelona's getting.

 

[nfitz]

If our subway tunnels had to cost $300 million/km, alternative building techniques on large portions of all the lines would surely bring the cost down to close to what Barcelona's getting.

Prey tell what magical tunnelling techniques are these?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ways to make tunneling less expensive would include dropping the bus bay per station requirement that seems to be up. That'd probably cut off $50 million/km. There's actually just possibilities for straight of simpler station design; more simple downtown-like stations, or stations integrated into new development.

If you're inquiring to straight off cheaper construction techniques, elevated guideway, trenched subway, and cut and cover.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Without knowing the specifics of Barcelona, I don't think it would be safe to generalize - and in fact here is the quote from the article that flies in the face against the general belief that cut and cover, etc is cheaper:

For €6.5 billion, the city will be getting 52 stations, 20 of which will include transfers; the project is expected to attract 350,000 daily riders. Because of Barcelona’s already very dense metro network, the line has been built below everything else. Tunnel boring machines, which Spain specializes in, were used for the entire underground path (the line includes a few miles above ground on viaducts); this decreased costs by limiting surface cuts and land purchasing. The city also has taken advantage of the line’s building to produce some very interesting street reconstructions.

AoD

 

[Second_in_pie]

Considering land values in Barcelona, I'd imagine that it would be. In Scarborough along the golden mile though, I don't think so.

 

[EnviroTO]

What alternative building techniques? We are using a brand new high-tech tunnel boring machine where required and cut-and-cover where it isn't. Is there some kind of alternative building technique which is cheap that isn't being used because we love big price tags?

 

[Second_in_pie]

What alternative building techniques? We are using a brand new high-tech tunnel boring machine where required and cut-and-cover where it isn't. Is there some kind of alternative building technique which is cheap that isn't being used because we love big price tags?

If you're inquiring to straight off cheaper construction techniques, elevated guideway, trenched subway, and cut and cover.

It would appear that we do just like big price tags. That's the only way I can explain it.

 

[nfitz]

Is there some kind of alternative building technique which is cheap that isn't being used because we love big price tags?

Sure there is an alternative technique. You pull it out of your ass.

 

[LAz]

I don't get why it must be 300 million per km.



I suggest doing it personal metro style. We could all pitch in and get the thing done in 20 years.

 

[Fresh Start]

^ It's a purely theoretical figure LAz, the TYSSE has yet to even commence any significant construction but the TTC has already tinkered with industry standard costing enough to declare $307 million/km and climbing, all without a step-by-step, thoroughly analyzed, open for scrutiny public disclosure as to how they arrived at those figures. If the cost to construct a bridge in the GTA is $25 million/km and condominiums with several sub-level parking basements cost on average $37 million to build, and rail track-laying for the new 28 kilometre Union Pearson Rail Link including various other improvements to the Georgetown GO corridor will cost $31.25 million/km over the next four years; then there must be something in the water at the TTC as to why they're arriving at these exorbitant cost projections. That or malfeasance.

 

[kettal]

Would that make NYC's water supply even more tainted that TTC's