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Baby, we got a bubble!?

PLEASE REREAD YOUR POST AS I TRIED TO ANSWER EACH POST AFTER EACH PARAGRAPH BUT MY RESPONSE IS INCLUDED IN YOUR ORIGINAL QUOTE. I APOLOGIZE. I REALIZE IN THE FUTURE I WILL HAVE TO SELECT THE PARTS OF THE QUOTE AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.

Actually, you can easily quote multiple sections separately. Just select the reply with quote option, then copy/paste the quote several times and edit out the unwanted portions in each.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict the real estate market in terms of absolutes in price increases and decreases.

You are completely WRONG. (....please note that my opinion, offered without explanation nor logic, has authority because I put a key word in capitals)
 
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Actually, you can easily quote multiple sections separately. Just select the reply with quote option, then copy/paste the quote several times and edit out the unwanted portions in each.


thank you for the instructions. shall use them in the future.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ordability-the-great-quandary/article1554481/

housing_table_622302artw.jpg
 
Well, I don't think there can be any doubt the real estate market is overheated. I've been watching rent-price spreads in Toronto rise for the last few years, while my friends and family have been trying to encourage me to buy property.

The Canadian real estate bubble is larger than a lot of people think, and it's been growing for longer than people think. The fact that we've seen double-digit percentage rises in housing prices for the last few decades is an anomaly. It's a function of cheap credit that central banks have been dumping into the market to fund an inflationary growth policy in all Western countries. And the fact that Canada has stricter regulations on mortgages and an almost non-existant subprime market has only caused Canada's bubble to inflate slower, over a longer period of time.

The fact is, that cheap credit has driven Canadian home ownership levels to all time highs, and the same new home owners have tens of thousands of dollars in credit lines against their mortgage that they've gone out and purchased big screen TVs, kitchen and bathroom renovations, etc. with.

With the balance sheet of the consumer in constant decline, and with the coming demographic crunch that will be caused by the baby boomers retiring and then trying to sell off their properties to get some money to retire, you're going to see a massive increase in inventory that won't be sustainable. Couple that with the fact that government's are going to need to raise interest rates soon, or risk serious consumer price inflation, large swaths of prospective homebuyers are going to find themselves unable to finance at the asking price of all this real estate.

There's already ample evidence this shift is occurring, even in the absence of an interest rate hike. The mere threat of an interest rate hike has caused a spike in inventories, and the while housing starts were bouncing off records at the end of last year, actual time-on-market averages of the secondary market have been rising steadily over the past six months. Theories of seasonalism to explain these declines aside, it's impossible to understand how the economic fundamentals can continue to sustain these prices. I think Canada is in for not just a minor correction, but a major correction.

Canada, like many other Western countries have a disease: home ownership is seen as the driving force of the economy. But it's actually not a driving force at all, it's a drain on the economy. It siphons off significant amounts of capital, and parks it for long periods of time without any capital generation other than speculative valuations that you can borrow cheaply against. But that's not capital creation, that's just higher levels of aggregate debt.

What do people do with their real estate "winnings" when they cash in equity on speculative prices? They go out and consume. They spend. They don't go and build a factory. They import stuff. The entire country's balance sheet deteriorates against Asia.

Home ownership as a cultural item also weakens productivity greatly, as it decreases labour mobility. People who own a home, have been demonstrably shown to be significantly less likely to move to where there is work, or better paying work. And empirical econometrics actually verify this phenomenon: unemployment rates have been shown to be proportional to the level of home ownership.

Not to mention that home ownership (and commercial real estate), is one of the biggest hidden drivers of consumer price inflation, due to the fact we use fractional reserve banking, and the amount of capital required to finance all of this real estate is not available through private saving, necessitating the need for central banks to increase the money supply, debasing the currency and pushing core inflation up. In a sense, we devalue our currencies intentionally in Western countries to subsidize all this real estate development -- it's a hidden tax. And all you home owners are stealing from us renters by requiring us to pay higher prices at the supermarket every year so you can have access to cheap capital to leverage against your house purchase.

For someone in my income bracket, I protect myself against this effect with inflation-hedged investments. But clearly, the poorest in our society do directly suffer due to the inflationary effects of the middle-class housing bonanza.

Food for thought.
 
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Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like the chart is saying that current rates are such that the carrying costs are only 10% below the costs if we move to the long term average rates?

Based upon which current and which long term average rates? I don't know what is the weighted average of the inforce mortgage rates. But with a 70/30 fixed/variable split, I'd be surprised to hear that the average rate in force is much higher than 5%. And Aren't the past 30yr average rate closer to 8%?

And why did they only provide the figures for the average bungalow? And where is this data from? Sorry for the rhetorical questions, but I find it really irritating when a media source publishes facts without sourcing them.
 
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daveto said:
I find it really irritating when a media source publishes facts without sourcing them.
Data is apparently from RBC. In the article they say that RBC has been tracking 100 neighbourhoods from across Canada, since 1985.

I haven't read through the entire RBC publication yet so I don't know if all the data is from there, but this is what they linked to the Globe article:

http://www.rbc.com/economics/market/pdf/house.pdf
 
Well, I don't think there can be any doubt the real estate market is overheated. I've been watching rent-price spreads in Toronto rise for the last few years, while my friends and family have been trying to encourage me to buy property.

The Canadian real estate bubble is larger than a lot of people think, and it's been growing for longer than people think. Theories of seasonalism to explain these declines aside, it's impossible to understand how the economic fundamentals can continue to sustain these prices. I think Canada is in for not just a minor correction, but a major correction.

Canada, like many other Western countries have a disease: home ownership is seen as the driving force of the economy.
. For someone in my income bracket, I protect myself against this effect with inflation-hedged investments.

Food for thought.

I think this is a well thought out view Brockm. However, if I accept what you say, and I have narrowed down my response to the items above: Is this not predicting virtually the end of the Canadian economy. If the driving force is housing, and it will mot only come to an end, but go negative, what will pick it up? What will happen to our Dollar, our stock market, bonds etc. I guess to protect oneself, you buy commodities or foreign based assets in a different currency (if so which?)
I am curious as to what you think the solution is. The reality is that if the housing market does implode, please explain to me where you are going to hide, i.e., what are the inflation-hedged investments you use/feel will survive.
 
Friends in the biz (real estate lawyers, agents etc) say the past few weeks the market has almost frozen. The HST effect has taken hold....

I am not suprised. Anectdotally, I see alot more for sale signs and they are sticking around longer.

Data shows already since January in downtown Toronto an increase in listings despite "record sales". The papers have been quoting the realtors and cherry picking stats: "The best march in 2010 ever, failing to mention that despite the sales, listings were doubling compared to the sales". Therefore time on the market increasing. It is only time until prices correct.

Again, I think UD you anticipate a much greater drop than will happen or at least I hope you do. BrockM just wrote a very involved thought out piece. It may happen but the ripple effect on the economy would lead one to believe one should buy gold and storage tanks for oil for the abyss that is coming. I believe that non market forces (read governments/sovereign funds, etc) will intervene to allow a more balanced approach to market deflation. I hope that it is not a massive correction as this prolonged will affect everyone, owners and renters. The renters may win in the short term with lower rents, but the pull back in spending by all will affected will affect everyone in a negative fashion.

the above said, the liquidity of the past decade, and especially the last 2 years will have to be withdrawn with corresponding heartache.
 
Friends in the biz (real estate lawyers, agents etc) say the past few weeks the market has almost frozen. The HST effect has taken hold....
That's odd. That's not what I'm hearing. In fact, brokers have working overtime in the last few weeks getting rate locks in place for purchases in the coming months. Furthermore, for resale, while HST affects lawyers' fees etc., it does not really impact resale home prices hugely.

Anecdotally, I've seen a few Sold signs around in the last couple of weeks.

We shall see soon (this week), but I'd expect April's sales numbers to be reasonably brisk.
 
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That's odd. That's not what I'm hearing. In fact, brokers have working overtime in the last few weeks getting rate locks in place for purchases in the coming months. Furthermore, for resale, while HST affects lawyers' fees etc., it does not really impact resale home prices hugely.

Anecdotally, I've seen a few Sold signs around in the last couple of weeks.

We shall see soon (this week), but I'd expect April's sales numbers to be reasonably brisk.

They will be brisk. the issue is that even allowing for this, if there are 2 houses being listed for every one sold (even if this is at a record number), the listing increases will lead to the inevitable stabilization of prices.

Also, numbers are reported to reflect that all is "great". March was the near bottom of the market last year so year on year, the growth looks spectacular. Remember, sales prices started to increase after april 2009 and therefore the year on year increase will start to decrease as it will not go up so much and by late fall I believe you will be reading that prices are increasing year on year but in fact by a very small amount and probably decreasing on a month to month basis.

If current trends continue, listings will also continue to increase thereby further driving down prices.
 
I think this is a well thought out view Brockm. However, if I accept what you say, and I have narrowed down my response to the items above: Is this not predicting virtually the end of the Canadian economy. If the driving force is housing, and it will mot only come to an end, but go negative, what will pick it up? What will happen to our Dollar, our stock market, bonds etc. I guess to protect oneself, you buy commodities or foreign based assets in a different currency (if so which?)
I am curious as to what you think the solution is. The reality is that if the housing market does implode, please explain to me where you are going to hide, i.e., what are the inflation-hedged investments you use/feel will survive.

Well, I never said we were headed for an economic collapse. And for the record, that's not my view.

The economy is not driven by the housing market. That's the illusion.

What is driven by the housing market is a false sense of collective wealth, however. People's wealth as reflected by the speculative sale value of a property based on the most recent comparables is nothing short of an illusion. That home equity can disappear faster than you can blink, is something the downturn in the US should have proven to everyone involved.

What's frightening, though, is how talk of improper regulation of mortgage eligibility rests on the assumption that the natural state of the market is to, in fact, rise faster than inflation. And prior to the final nail in the coffin of the gold standard, with Nixon's hail mary of the Bretton Woods consensus in 1971, there was virtually no appreciation in average home prices adjusted for inflation since 1859. What changed?

What changed was government's got in the business of subsidizing mortgages with artificially low interest rates as a matter of monetary policy. Over time, government incentives to home ownership, such as organizations like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which represented almost guaranteed buyers of home loans, and more recently in Canada, the Canadian Mortgage Housing Corporation, made it easier and easier for people of lower and lower incomes to qualify for mortgages. Not simply as a matter of credit rating, but as a matter of the actual cost of the money being cheaper.

But interest rates were/are not lower because real savings were high; a natural prerequisite in a free market. They were low because the government's were printing money to make them low. And ever since the Great Depression, the Keynesian orthodoxy against savings has reigned supreme. Keynesians believe in the "paradox of thrift"; that, if you save your money in a checking or savings account, you're depriving someone of a job. Instead, you should go out to Winners and buy a new golf shirt. This economic belief system lead to the rise of pro-growth economics, which made the stability of the entire economy dependent on ever expanding GDP through higher productivity and higher consumer spending, in order to offset the inflationary pressures caused by the fact that monetary bases were being expanded to continually extend more and more consumers credit to buy homes and other items like automobiles.

Ever since this policy has been in full-swing, government interest rates have been fighting a losing battle as they average lower and lower -- loosening access to new money -- in order to keep the economy growing and avoid deflation. Governments have started to run out of options on this front, since interest rates can't really go below zero. So now they are resorting to using open market operations, quantitative easement, and tighter lending standards to try and reign in the natural inflationary pressures that the monetary policy is precipitating.

The housing problem is a result of the perverse incentives that all this nearly-free money create; people are looking to increase their capital wealth they easiest way possible. So are businesses.

If you have interest rates below inflation, the market is sending a signal that there is excess savings in the market, and it's cheaper to expand material wealth through borrowing than through savings. And it is the rational choice! Which is why consumers keep doing it. But the problem is that the interest rates are not indicative of savings levels. Rather, they're artificially imposed rates by the government, and the worse the situation gets, the lower they push the rates, and encourage more and more borrowing. And people borrow. They take the greater and greater pools of money, and they get into bidding wars for property, which pushed asset prices up. But all the while, the whole market is built on a false foundation.

The effects are even more perverse, and these policies have had a direct contribution to the de-industrialization of the West, as access to real capital for investors is extremely difficult. Since the labour force is biased towards quality of life improvement through borrowing, rather than labour-intensive work. This drives the minimum industry can pay up, and in turn, incentivizes industry to export labour.

How bad is the situation in Canada? Well, I can tell you with a great degree of confidence it's not as bad as the United States. For one, we have a significant amount of natural resources. We often beat ourselves up about being a resource economy, but in reality, this is one of our most important saving graces. The other factor is the fact that government debt levels are so low, which will help keep our buying power, relative to the rest of the world in check.

But that shouldn't give you any real comfort. The US economy is not going to recover like most people think it's going to. The structural imbalances there are beyond insane. It's only a matter of time before China and Japan stop buying US treasuries completely, and there's a run on the dollar. When this happens, all bets are off for Canada. Our economy is not prepared to absorb that shock, as our industries are far too dependent on US export.

The real key to Canada's future is what the government does. Does it panic and go on a money printing binge? (Probably.). Or does it focus on short-term relief for the unemployed and allow the economy to restructure away from US dependence? (Not very likely.).
 
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