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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I agree with you. There are many on this board that just like to 'trash' the condo market when it has been and will be the best performing market in North America. Prices are very much in check and with the supply coming to market its good because it balances the market and prices and growth will remain stable = a very healthy market.


It’s interesting to read all of these "doom and gloom" commentaries. While I do have a vested interest in a stable real estate market since I am a property owner, I must say that it is rather comical to read these comments.

It almost feels like a desperate attempt to trigger mass fear in the general population so that a) people shy away from the market and b) sellers dump at all cost so that these very same people can become property owners. It is pretty clear to me that most of the complainers are aspiring home owners.

I have absolutely NO idea where prices are going; although it is not unreasonable for prices to cool given the surge we have seen in the past year not to mention the impact of expected higher interest rates. Whether the market cools 10%, 20%, remains flat or whatever - flip a coin as no one here has any ability to predict with any credible accuracy. If they did, they would be billionaires.

Anyone who continues to participate in the nonsense of trying to comment about the impending doom and gloom is simply a desperate aspiring home owner. Put your cards on the table and reveal your true intentions….

If you think you know it all then focus your time and effort to start a hedge fund, find a creative way to short the Canadian housing market, make your millions when the market bursts and FINALLY become a home owner with your new war chest.
 
The Economist calculator was discussed at length earlier in this discussion (buried somewhere in the 50 odd pages, I can't find it). There are some inconsistencies (errors?) in the data they are using for Canada.
 
So if one *must* buy a new condo unit during this time, is there a 'safe' $/sqft to buy to avoid the bubble effect or at least mitigate its effects?
 
So if one *must* buy a new condo unit during this time, is there a 'safe' $/sqft to buy to avoid the bubble effect or at least mitigate its effects?

If you "must " buy, then I hope you have a long time frame reference (eg. 5+years). If not, I would seriously consider renting as when you factor in the costs of purchase, closing, land transfer, legal, r/e commissions, HST if new and closing after I believe July 1, 2010, etc. that is alot of ground to make up even if there is no price dip and one senses more and more gloom creeping in. Unfortunately, this is often a self fulfilling profecy.

I have said in other areas I believe that a retest of the lows of 2008-9 or 2007 prices may be a good guess (or between 10-20% off present prices). I am not one of the "doom and gloom posters". I believe however that the world looks no better now than it did just prior to the last peak and yet prices are higher. In fact, I would argue before the crisis things looked downright rosey and prices were 5-10% below where they are today. that said, prices today are still at highs but increasing inventories and products will inevitably stave off further increases and probably result in some decreases.

More concretely, if downtown is averaging $500-600/ foot for new product and say $400-500 for resale, I would look to spend$450-$550 max for new product (the lower the better) and good quality resale $350-$450. I don't believe you will find much "new" product at this range below this because it will take people some time to adjust to the downward influence on prices.

People seem to have no trouble accepting a $50/sq. ft rise in price over a year and thinking it will go to a $100 increase next year but when they look to sell, the same people will not accept a $50 price drop and will stubbornly think in terms of where prices were rather than were they are going to adjust downwards and hence tend to hold out and watch as their investment deteriorates but stubbornly will not sell for fear that it "may reverse".

Just my thoughts "onfence". I would look at assignments but ask for weak/motivated sellers. There are a number of people with I am guessing who are spread thin and with small down payments who would love to get out with some profit but less than todays asking prices. As the market halts, the incentive for reasonableness on the part of sellers will become more obvious. I personally would hold off as long as possible but I appreciate sometimes one "must" purchase.

Hope this is of some help.
 
I still don't understand why a new place costs more than resale these days. Good quality resales are comparatively even cheaper than the price would suggest, since there is no phantom rent for example.
 
I still don't understand why a new place costs more than resale these days. Good quality resales are comparatively even cheaper than the price would suggest, since there is no phantom rent for example.

Presumably because resellers of condo units don't venture off to Shanghai and Beijing to peddle their product. If they did they probably would achieve higher prices.
 
If you "must " buy, then I hope you have a long time frame reference (eg. 5+years). If not, I would seriously consider renting as when you factor in the costs of purchase, closing, land transfer, legal, r/e commissions, HST if new and closing after I believe July 1, 2010, etc. that is alot of ground to make up even if there is no price dip and one senses more and more gloom creeping in. Unfortunately, this is often a self fulfilling profecy.

I have said in other areas I believe that a retest of the lows of 2008-9 or 2007 prices may be a good guess (or between 10-20% off present prices). I am not one of the "doom and gloom posters". I believe however that the world looks no better now than it did just prior to the last peak and yet prices are higher. In fact, I would argue before the crisis things looked downright rosey and prices were 5-10% below where they are today. that said, prices today are still at highs but increasing inventories and products will inevitably stave off further increases and probably result in some decreases.

More concretely, if downtown is averaging $500-600/ foot for new product and say $400-500 for resale, I would look to spend$450-$550 max for new product (the lower the better) and good quality resale $350-$450. I don't believe you will find much "new" product at this range below this because it will take people some time to adjust to the downward influence on prices.

People seem to have no trouble accepting a $50/sq. ft rise in price over a year and thinking it will go to a $100 increase next year but when they look to sell, the same people will not accept a $50 price drop and will stubbornly think in terms of where prices were rather than were they are going to adjust downwards and hence tend to hold out and watch as their investment deteriorates but stubbornly will not sell for fear that it "may reverse".

Just my thoughts "onfence". I would look at assignments but ask for weak/motivated sellers. There are a number of people with I am guessing who are spread thin and with small down payments who would love to get out with some profit but less than todays asking prices. As the market halts, the incentive for reasonableness on the part of sellers will become more obvious. I personally would hold off as long as possible but I appreciate sometimes one "must" purchase.

Hope this is of some help.



It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict the real estate market in terms of absolutes in price increases and decreases.

What I can say with certainty is if you're looking for $350-450 a square foot for new construction in downtown Toronto you simply are out of touch with the market and won't find anything - not anything good. Come on $350/foot? The real estate agents would line up for weeks - they'd be shipping in money from overseas and snapping of everything available. I just can't see $350/foot ever again. If you figure in construction costs (hard and soft) + land costs + financing costs (construction loans and mezzanine loans), $350/foot is just not going to happen. Developers (who are all very wealthy by the way) would simply hold back, keep supply low, and wait it out - that's what the did in late 08 and into 09.

Toronto is a big city; a top 10 financial centre and it's growing rapidly. Comparing comparable world cities, Toronto is still reasonably priced.

I always advise people if they can afford a home (and I don't mean maxing out with 5% down on a 35 year ammort. because that can potentially be very dangerous) they should purchase one. Right now there are almost no quick flips in the Toronto real estate market. The days of quick "flips" is gone. Renting is something I never rent to people that can afford to buy. But I'm a property owner and will continue to buy, so I guess I'm biased.
 
it is impossible to predict the real estate market in terms of absolutes in price increases and decreases.

Agree


what i can say with certainty is if you're looking for $350-450 a square foot for new construction in downtown toronto you simply are out of touch with the market and won't find anything - not anything good. Come on $350/foot? The real estate agents would line up for weeks - they'd be shipping in money from overseas and snapping of everything available. I just can't see $350/foot ever again. If you figure in construction costs (hard and soft) + land costs + financing costs (construction loans and mezzanine loans), $350/foot is just not going to happen. Developers (who are all very wealthy by the way) would simply hold back, keep supply low, and wait it out - that's what the did in late 08 and into 09.

Please reread my post. I said $350-450 for resale; $450-550 for new.
Builders did not choose to hold back in 2008-2009. In fact, many projects despite greater than 60% sales could not get financing. It is very expensive for builders to relaunch projects, sit on land etc. Reality is that there is a 2-3 year delay between start of sales and project completion at a minimum and therefore there is alot of product coming to market over the next 1-2 years. Hence, if product exceeds demand, prices are likely to fall.

Toronto is a big city; a top 10 financial centre and it's growing rapidly. Comparing comparable world cities, toronto is still reasonably priced.

I have responded to this in other posts. It is true and it may be reasonably priced. But you cannot pick up real estate in toronto and relocate it. Hence, if the foreign money currently fueling at least some of our growth in prices decides not to invest here, are you certain local demand can sustain these prices.

I always advise people if they can afford a home (and i don't mean maxing out with 5% down on a 35 year ammort. Because that can potentially be very dangerous) they should purchase one. Right now there are almost no quick flips in the toronto real estate market. The days of quick "flips" is gone. Renting is something i never rent to people that can afford to buy. But i'm a property owner and will continue to buy, so i guess i'm biased.

i did not say rent forever and i don't dispute that owning is a good decision for alot of people, not just because of the economics. That said, i can recall people in the late 1980's who left toronto just before the peak, moved to vancouver, and came back in 1994. They made a fortune. People going the opposite way lost a fortune. People who stayed in toronto from 1989 and purchased near the peak had to wait for over a decade to get back to their purchase price. My point to the purchaser who must buy was that if the time horizon in which he anticipated he might sell was within 5 years, he may be better off renting when considering all the costs to buy and sell and given that we have had 10 years of essentially rising prices.

One final note, i am a property owner of a few properties and i still say this. I hope you are right that prices keep going up. However, i believe there will be a lull and possibly a decrease (not crash) over the next couple of years.

PLEASE REREAD YOUR POST AS I TRIED TO ANSWER EACH POST AFTER EACH PARAGRAPH BUT MY RESPONSE IS INCLUDED IN YOUR ORIGINAL QUOTE. I APOLOGIZE. I REALIZE IN THE FUTURE I WILL HAVE TO SELECT THE PARTS OF THE QUOTE AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.
 
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