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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I forgot to add.. CG is a good friend and an expert in wealth building and real estate for end users.. I have never seen anyone more ethical and on top of their game as he is. I read many posts about agents and the lack of ethics in the industry which I honestly actually see on a daily basis. Unfortunately It's realistic and part of the real estate business (not trying to trash realtors) on the other hand there are some really good ones out there and I am pleased to be using one.

OH.. and the sales numbers were about 18% higher from Dec 2012 to January 2013. I was even surprized.. at the sales strength.... seeing the same trend for Feb so far..
 
Hi UD.. speaking of bubble callers... whens the big pop happening again?? same story for 10+ years
Sorry i'm not a Realtor... and for the typo. I guess I need to review my responses in detail for the professionals that read them.
 
I said the bubble would burst June 2012. It did. Bubbles don't just burst in one big pop. They come in waves but the trend is down. Just because a bunch of Asian investors bought 50% of 365 doesn't mean the market has recovered. If anything, the market is following the DOW, so watch that for future moves. Yes ppl are checking out real estate sites again--Alexa is one of the tools I use to track the market--but it's no where near where it was in 2011.

I am neither bullish nor bearish--just interested in the market. I have zero intentions of buying property in Toronto. But I do love watching attractive buildings rise. Ugly ones--ie the majority--no.
 
Hi UD.. speaking of bubble callers... whens the big pop happening again?? same story for 10+ years
Sorry i'm not a Realtor... and for the typo. I guess I need to review my responses in detail for the professionals that read them.

Don't you mean professionalisms?


Serious Mike, your posts bleed of self-serving platitudes & ignorance. The market is much, much weaker today. Any attempt at disputing that blatant fact makes you look even more of a shill for the industry.

I'm a (real) long term believer in 416 real estate however all I see on the horizon is over supply, anemic demand & stringent (as it should be) lending standards.
 
Hi CDR.. the simple answer is repositioning.


that makes very little sense considering the transaction costs of real estate.

if one is a TRUE strong believe in the Toronto market, one keeps their portfolio;
UNLESS one doesn't really believe as much and/or has overextended themselves with leverage where any minor downward adjustment of 10+% or cashflow is so poor/negative that it doesn't cover all costs (which most new construction hasn't in the past 5 years)
 
Why would you ask the seller to do renovations when renovations are done to people's own taste? I would just ask to drop the price, don't waste time on work that's just going to be undone and redone anyway. I want to know the quality of the work, what's behind the walls and if the structure is sound.

Buyer provides plans and works with architect/engineer/decorator to achieve wanted results. You're not asking for a random $15k in renovations, you require very specific results.

Seller takes responsibility for anything found behind a wall that's taken down (rot, mold, insect infestation, wiring/plumbing issues, ...). Sometimes taking down a wall can uncover a really expensive problem.

Also, the work is complete the day the buyer moves in as it takes place while the seller is living there. A 2 week kitchen renovation can easily become 2 months and drywall dust gets everywhere. Not having to suffer through that as a buyer would be great.
 
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Five reasons not to buy a Toronto condo Add to ...
Ben Rabidoux

Special to The Globe and Mail

Published Wednesday, Feb. 13 2013, 5:00 AM EST

Last updated Wednesday, Feb. 13 2013, 8:54 AM EST


Print AA The Toronto condo market has been the centre of much discussion recently, with even the Bank of Canada giving it significant coverage in the December 2012 edition of the Financial Stability Review.

The potential risks facing this market segment have now crept to the forefront in discussions on the health of the overall Toronto real estate market - and for good reason. As the Bank of Canada noted, “Price corrections in particular segments of the housing market may put downward pressure on house prices more generally.†Because of this, the health of the condo market ought to be of interest to everyone in Toronto.

More Related to this Story
•BEN RABIDOUX Why a ‘soft landing’ for housing could still hurt the economy

•Rob Carrick Why the Home Buyers’ Plan should be wound down

•ECONOMY Jobs downturn mirrors slump in housing and trade

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New condo sales in GTA


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New dwellings under construction in GTA


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Population change in Ontario


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Change in median resale prices

And on that front, it appears that 2013 may prove to be a pivotal year for the condo market as a number of factors seem to be lining up against it.

In particular, I see five trends worth watching in 2013:

1) Sales of new and existing condos are weakening
Sales of existing condo units, as measured on the Multiple Listing Service, have fallen in both the 905 and 416 regions. January sales in the 416 declined 6 per cent from a year earlier and 9 per cent in the 905 over that same time period.

The story is even worse in the new condo market where as the attached chart shows, sales of new units fell 53 per cent in December compared to last year.

Falling sales have been accompanied by rising inventory through the second half of 2012. Rising supply and falling demand are destabilizing factors in a real estate market.

2) Inventory of unsold condos is now rising rapidly
January saw a significant rise in the MLS condo inventory across the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) over the same month last year, with condos for sale rising 28 per cent in the 416 — including a 42-per-cent jump in the downtown core — and 49 per cent in the 905. Weakening sales and rising inventory is a clear indication that supply and demand is increasingly out of balance.

3) There is an unprecedented supply of new condos in the pipeline, with a record number of units set to complete in 2013
Given the number of cranes that fill the Toronto skyline, it will likely come as no shock to Toronto residents that the number of condo units under construction is at an all-time high at just under 55,000 units. See the attached chart for a look at the historical comparison.

Of these, an estimated 25,000 to 28,000 units are set to complete in 2013, representing an enormous amount of potential new inventory. If current trends persist, these units will be completing, and a portion of them hitting the market, at a time when existing inventory is already high and sales are relatively weak.

4) Population growth is slowing
What’s ultimately needed to deal with what appears to be a potential condo oversupply problem is strong population growth in the GTA.

While we often hear that the GTA attracts some 100,000 new individuals annually, it appears that population growth is slowing. In fact, if we look at net population change in Ontario, we find that our population as a province is growing at the slowest pace since 2007. See the attached chart for details.

In a recent report, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation discussed the effect of slowing population growth on real estate in Toronto:

“At least part of the reduction in ownership demand (in Toronto) over the second half of 2012 can be linked to weaker migratory flows into the region. Net migration for Ontario over the past year ending in September 2012 declined by more than 20 per cent as a decreased number of people from other countries came to live in the province and an increased number of Ontarians migrated out. This suggests that the GTA (which doesn’t have updated data for 2012 but represents roughly 70 per cent of the province’s migration flows), saw the number of net new people decline to below 60,000 for the first time since the late 1990s.â€

Population trends are notoriously difficult to predict, but the fact that Toronto’s population growth is slowing dramatically as we head into 2013 is one more reason to be concerned.

5) Condo prices are now falling
Finally, and perhaps as a logical result of the weakness in the condo market in late 2012, prices are beginning to fall. The final chart attached shows the year-over-year change in the median resale price of condos and single-family homes in the GTA, as reported by the Toronto Real Estate Board. Put simply, when the trend is below zero per cent, it means prices are falling compared to the previous year.

Resale prices for condos are now slightly below what they were a year ago. Barring a major change in current sales and inventory trends, it doesn’t appear that prices will rebound soon, a topic I will address further in this upcoming seminar.

For prospective first-time buyers looking at jumping into the condo market, it certainly looks like 2013 will be a great year to sit on the sidelines and watch how this plays out. For condo owners looking to sell, be aware of the current state of the market and set your price and expectations accordingly.

Ben Rabidoux is a Canadian analyst and strategist with U.S.-based Hanson Advisors, as well as the author of The Economic Analyst blog.
 
Buyer provides plans and works with architect/engineer/decorator to achieve wanted results. You're not asking for a random $15k in renovations, you require very specific results.

Seller takes responsibility for anything found behind a wall that's taken down (rot, mold, insect infestation, wiring/plumbing issues, ...). Sometimes taking down a wall can uncover a really expensive problem.

Also, the work is complete the day the buyer moves in as it takes place while the seller is living there. A 2 week kitchen renovation can easily become 2 months and drywall dust gets everywhere. Not having to suffer through that as a buyer would be great.

In my experience, in the best of a buyers market, buyers have used this tactic as a negotiating tool but only for valid reasons, i.e. you can't say that the kitchen is not to your liking therefore Mr. Seller, I will only buy if you renovate according to these plans. It only works if there is a clear deficiency that requires $X to remedy, e.g. something that needs to be updated to meet code. Most of the time, the seller will simply research the costs, present the figures and use that as a negotiating tool to counter the buyer's offer. At the end of the day, it'd usually be a price reduction based on an agreed-upon figure. I've never heard of a seller actually going ahead with major renovations pending a sale in order to close the deal although it's technically possible. Mind you, this is all to the best of my knowledge in a buyers market. In a sellers market, obviously the scenario would be quite different.
 
I'm with you love watching attractive buildings added to our skyline.

As for the bubble - I dont think there was really one. Just a slowdown in sales and a small adjustment in prices - guess people started listening to "experts" like CNTower and negative articles.. still early but it looks like the slowdown we experienced in 2012 has created a some serious demand across the GTA - most people that put their buying decisions on hold in 2012 are now entering the market in 2013.

Repositioning - some pockets/buildings appreciate much faster than others in the long term. So in my strategy I look at areas/buildings with potential and try to position there. Who really knows - no one but its worked for many years for me so I'm really just going with what I know.
 
that makes very little sense considering the transaction costs of real estate.

if one is a TRUE strong believe in the Toronto market, one keeps their portfolio;
UNLESS one doesn't really believe as much and/or has overextended themselves with leverage where any minor downward adjustment of 10+% or cashflow is so poor/negative that it doesn't cover all costs (which most new construction hasn't in the past 5 years)


Very true.. one keeps their positions but sometimes adjustments and needed along the way (depending on ones objectives)
 
I have recently sold property - priced it right and sold within a few weeks, steady showings 8-10 a week
GTA Sales numbers overall are pretty steady year over year.. so are prices.. what exactly is so weak?

There is a nice balance of supply out there for buyers.. keeps prices in check and gives buyers time to look and find the right property.
Healthy for the market and everyone that is an owner.
 
Pretty good compendium of the data on a housing bubble:

http://www.financialiceberg.com/jan_29_canadian_mega_housing_bubble.html
http://www.financialiceberg.com/feb_11_cda_housing_bubble_p2.html

NB: I'm not the blogger, and he's not really making predictions, just sowing a general fear... ;-) but his graphs are good.


I find the first graph very interesting. Pattern is almost identical for Van, TO and Montreal. Prices always moved in the same direction....
 
Mike,
with all due respect, market is showing some weaknesses. It's easy to spot on the graph for 2012 that prices/sales peaked some time ago and are declining now. You can't deny that.
 
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