Another useless Apple vs PC thread

[syn]

You're having a difficult time counting. While Apple may now be bringing in an operating system that can't be installed on hardware that it stopped selling over three and a half years ago, Microsoft released a system that wouldn't run on systems selling concurrently that were labelled "Vista Capable". That's the distinction I am making. No one expects their existing computers to be indefinitely upgradeable, no matter what platform you're on, but people do expect to be able to update for a while, and people expect a new purchase to run the system that it promises on the box, which was not the case for a lot of what was on sale when Vista hit the market.

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"Vista Capable" meant that it could run an edition of Vista - not necessarily all of them. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't pay much attention and bought the wrong version for systems they had, which probably could only run the least taxing version.

I've said many times that Vista has a lousy launch. Microsoft made a big mistake with too many versions and not enough clarity. You'll get no argument from me. This is one of the great things Apple has done with the Mac OS - keeping it down to one simple, fully featured version.

My point, however, was that one of the supposed major benefits of the Mac OS, frequently repeated (to quote Metroman: "While new Windows releases have required increasingly more powerful hardware, new versions of OSX breath new life into old hardware.") is not really true anymore. Not only will Snow Leopard not breath life into old Power PC systems - it won't even run on those systems. People can keep bringing up Vista, but you won't find anyone defending Microsoft's ridiculous product schemes and confusing requirements. Vista is pretty much done. Windows 7 is the version you should be really looking at.

The fact is, Windows 7 increases the performance of my 5 year old XP system. Can you say the same for Snow Leopard? If you have a 5 year old Mac, you won't be getting any new OS upgrades. If you have 3 year old Mac, there's a good chance you won't be able to run the new OS either (Apple was still selling remaining Power PC systems until the end of August 2006).

Windows 7 has been shown to increase the performance of even older systems too. So I'd say at this point this is really not a disadvantage for Windows...in fact, I'd say they've jumped ahead of the Mac OS in that regard. Wouldn't you?

 

[syn]

I am addressing a fact: your passion and persistence in expressing what comes off as hate for Apple products (dislike, disgust, snobbish rejection - or whatever). It's not an attack on you, but an observation on how you opt to express your opinion. The fact that you feel attacked suggests some acute sensitivity on your part. It all comes off sounding terribly defensive.

You might want to review your posts because the only one who is reading 'snobbish' right now is you.

Frankly, I could not care less what people use. They should use what they want, or like. It's their money and their experience, not yours. That you need to continually express your negative attitude over what people opt to buy or use in terms of technology says something. If someone likes the products, you insinuate stupidity or ignorance on their part. It's really silly. Why do you even care what other people like or use? Are you offended that others have different likes, interests or preferences other than yours? No one is stopping you from buying or using whatever you happen to be a fanboy of, are they?

I couldn't care less either. People can use what they want. Why is it so bad do disagree with an Apple user and present facts that contradict their statements? As I wrote before, you are not addressing anything I've posted, you're simply attacking me.

If you have this much of an issue with my posts, then you must really hate Apple marketing...much of which is based on the idea one person is better than another simply because of the computer they use. Really, there are few large companies with marketing as pretentious as Apple's.

 

[gristle]

You might want to review your posts because the only one who is reading 'snobbish' right now is you.

You take a supercilious tone with anyone who comments on your musings. It makes you come off as a snob, Otherwise your comment makes no sense.

I couldn't care less either. People can use what they want. Why is it so bad do disagree with an Apple user and present facts that contradict their statements? As I wrote before, you are not addressing anything I've posted, you're simply attacking me.

If you have this much of an issue with my posts, then you must really hate Apple marketing...much of which is based on the idea one person is better than another simply because of the computer they use. Really, there are few large companies with marketing as pretentious as Apple's.

Actually, you care a lot about what people opt to use. This thread is a clear illustration of that. As for "attacking" you, try put aside your hurt feelings for a moment. You have your opinions on the technology you wish to use and others have theirs on which technology they wish to use. The trouble is that you seem to find fault with those who state a view that they favour Apple products. You come off sounding as if you are some sort of arbiter of truth on the topic with a special objective insight. If people favour one technology over another, so what? If they opt to spend more on something they like, what business is it of yours? It's not your money being spent. In Both Mac and PC platforms are essentially pretty much the same in so many ways. Yet any statement of personal choice or satisfaction with respect to an Apple product seems to get your back up.

As for Apple marketing, it's marketing and nothing more. I don't hate it, I just don't care. Just as I don't really care about any other PC ads. Ads don't make the machine or the software. They offer nothing in terms of actual capability or personal experience. That much should be clear to you.

 

[cacruden]

deep breath

 

[afransen]

No they were not at that price point (that price point did not exist at that time). Vista was delayed, but it was getting near that final date when Vista was about to be released. The specifications to run Vista well were quite a bit higher than that of XP. The hardware did not want to sell "premium" hardware now with XP, but wanted to market it for Vista (free upgrade to Vista). They went back to Microsoft and asked that the specifications for Vista be lowered, because they wanted to market it for Vista now - but did not want to have to only market the highest end computers when the hardware was not currently needed by XP. Microsoft agreed, even though they knew the hardware was completely insufficient. The price of the systems were not netbook range (that came afterwards). A class action lawsuit was started, emails subpoenaed, and Microsoft hauled into court. The emails were very embarrassing - because there was ongoing conversations which indicate Microsoft knew full well that what they were allowing to happen was fraudulent in nature.

I wouldn't say that that pricepoint didn't exist. I bought such a computer at that price for someone (it did need more RAM).

 

[afransen]

As for Apple marketing, it's marketing and nothing more. I don't hate it, I just don't care. Just as I don't really care about any other PC ads. Ads don't make the machine or the software. They offer nothing in terms of actual capability or personal experience. That much should be clear to you.

Their ads were enough for me to boycott Apple products. I don't even use iTunes, or QuickTime.

 

[cacruden]

Well, it is more than marketing that is causing the shift - Apple has good marketing prior to the last few years - there has been a significant up-shift in the number of mac computer users.

In the current company (client) - they still use Windows XP internally (and big boxes), but the employees (which have been fairly stable - i.e. not due to new blood) have moved from 1.5% of employees owning macs -- to -- 21.5%.

My previous employer Thoughtworks Inc. has decided to support macs as for their employees - you can choose to have a mac or you can choose to have a windows box -- I don't know the percentages that went with macs but I have been told it is a majority of the technical staff (which is a majority of the company).

Most of the people are moving not because of marketing - but because most of the people they know that went with a mac are very happy with their decision - so they gave it a try (word of mouth).

Now overall, the percentage of the total marketplace is probably still less than 10% (Canada having the highest penetration rate). Penetration among technical people has gone up faster - most of the people that I see at "leading edge technology" type conferences - are not windows users - the majority is split between Linux and "OS X".

Of course % of market penetration by a number of companies (who are also big clients of Microsoft generally - although I am not sure that is the basis of there distortion of sales numbers) - you will see mac penetration much lower - but if you dig into the numbers - you will see that they include all specialized devices that run Windows (cash registers, etc) but only mac computers that are not specialized (i.e. iPhone and iTunes touch are specialized versions of mac computers - just limited).

The momentum is still there right now - so I think you will see more people convert to using macs - but time will tell.

 

[MetroMan]

^ I made the switch when I was working at a company that designed Windows only software and yet more than half the employees had PowerBooks at their desks. Word of mouth indeed did the trick for me. It isn't a coincidence that people who switch from Windows to Mac become so passionate about it.

 

[AGTO]

you will see that they include all specialized devices that run Windows (cash registers, etc) but only mac computers that are not specialized

that's because there are very very few apple products that can be used in production environemnts....as previously mentioned, you can't put a time code card or a rocketport in an apple product.
You won't find apple products in "high uptime" equipment, nor banks, nor in live television production or post....there may be a few old mac based AVIDS left, but AVID doesn't even build for mac anymore.
This will be news to apple users as well, but photoshop runs just fine on a PC...has done so for years.

 

[gristle]

Their ads were enough for me to boycott Apple products. I don't even use iTunes, or QuickTime.

I know a few people who despise those Microsoft ads showing little children putting together slide shows with music with the greatest of ease. To them, it suggests that any adult who may have trouble operating such a Microsoft product is less intelligence or capable than a seven year old.

But that's advertising. If you take it personally, that's your issue.

The entire computer and software industries can be condemned for suggesting that their products are are somehow "intuitive." That's a notion that has been way oversold - regardless of who is doing the selling.

 

[syn]

Well, it is more than marketing that is causing the shift - Apple has good marketing prior to the last few years - there has been a significant up-shift in the number of mac computer users.

In the current company (client) - they still use Windows XP internally (and big boxes), but the employees (which have been fairly stable - i.e. not due to new blood) have moved from 1.5% of employees owning macs -- to -- 21.5%.

My previous employer Thoughtworks Inc. has decided to support macs as for their employees - you can choose to have a mac or you can choose to have a windows box -- I don't know the percentages that went with macs but I have been told it is a majority of the technical staff (which is a majority of the company).

Most of the people are moving not because of marketing - but because most of the people they know that went with a mac are very happy with their decision - so they gave it a try (word of mouth).

Now overall, the percentage of the total marketplace is probably still less than 10% (Canada having the highest penetration rate). Penetration among technical people has gone up faster - most of the people that I see at "leading edge technology" type conferences - are not windows users - the majority is split between Linux and "OS X".

Of course % of market penetration by a number of companies (who are also big clients of Microsoft generally - although I am not sure that is the basis of there distortion of sales numbers) - you will see mac penetration much lower - but if you dig into the numbers - you will see that they include all specialized devices that run Windows (cash registers, etc) but only mac computers that are not specialized (i.e. iPhone and iTunes touch are specialized versions of mac computers - just limited).

The momentum is still there right now - so I think you will see more people convert to using macs - but time will tell.

I think Apple missed an opportunity to really make a mark in the enterprise market. With MS really screwing up with Vista, Apple had a golden opportunity up their market share. With Windows 7 coming out (apparently to pretty favourable reviews/previews), I think that window of opportunity may be closed.

That shouldn't matter anyways. Apple has never been much of an enterprise supplier. I think their main focus by far will always be with consumers.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think Apple missed an opportunity to really make a mark in the enterprise market. With MS really screwing up with Vista, Apple had a golden opportunity up their market share. With Windows 7 coming out (apparently to pretty favourable reviews/previews), I think that window of opportunity may be closed.

That shouldn't matter anyways. Apple has never been much of an enterprise supplier. I think their main focus by far will always be with consumers.

I agree that they could have been more aggressive with enterprise, but I honestly don't think it's the market they want. Remember that Apple has 91% of the over-$1000 computer market.

Enterprise stuff is cheap and getting cheaper - at my workplace, we buy laptops for ~$800 and desktops for sub-$500. Apple's been very reluctant to enter the low-price market, probably because the margins are so slight. If Apple never gets in the lowest price arena with a competitive market, their overall marketshare is unlikely to increase by leaps and bounds. But does it matter?

 

[syn]

I agree that they could have been more aggressive with enterprise, but I honestly don't think it's the market they want. Remember that Apple has 91% of the over-$1000 computer market.

Enterprise stuff is cheap and getting cheaper - at my workplace, we buy laptops for ~$800 and desktops for sub-$500. Apple's been very reluctant to enter the low-price market, probably because the margins are so slight. If Apple never gets in the lowest price arena with a competitive market, their overall marketshare is unlikely to increase by leaps and bounds. But does it matter?

Consumer products are getting a lot cheaper too. That's the reason why Apple has such a large market share of the $1,000+ market; it isn't really surprising at all. The average price of a decent system has dropped dramatically over the years.

A general user can go to Futureshop or Best Buy and get a full system, with a monitor, for well below $1,000. A lot of laptops are in the sub-$1,000 category too.

 

[cacruden]

If it is already a windows office, then they will just make them inter-operate - which they are working towards (Already could authenticate against Active Directory server, now Mail/Calendar can work against an exchange server, and a few others).

If creating a new small department - apple actually has a reasonably cheap solution to offset cost per computer & license. I can go out and buy an unlimited license snow leopard server - set it up to "manage" computers, mail server, calendar, internal chat server, wiki, internal blogs etc., DNS, DHCP, etc. (a lot of the stuff under the covers is open source based) - for $499. All of it managed through a nice UI management tool. Microsoft solutions are a lot more than that price.

It is not easy to break into an existing deployment though - a lot of companies don't like to change.

 

[MBS]

I use linux... and i love it