Amalgamation

[adma]

Re amalgamation vs deamalgamation: as I like to say, sure, amalgamation produced Mayor Ford. Yet, it also produced a Mayor Miller--and remember that a couple of decades ago, in the aftermath of the Eggleton and Rowlands regimes, a "Miller progressive" in the top office appeared inconceivable even in the *former* City of Toronto.

IOW it's all, well, "complicated".

 

[JWBF]

Getting back to my own topic... I just don't know, as it stands I am teetering in the middle of deamalgamation and regional authority, because were we are as an amalgamated entity just ain't working.

Mayors come and go, you never really know what you get until the first year, is done. The important part is people being listened to, and not this "mandate" garbage spread by some individuals. Your the mayor of a city, not a chosen people.

 

[spider]

Specifically, what doesn't work well that is the fault of amalgamation?
Transit, roads
Police, Fire
Utilities
Hospitals
Schools
Downtowners and suburbanites can dislike each other forever, they don't have to be in love to make this City work.

 

[nfitz]

Specifically, what doesn't work well that is the fault of amalgamation?
Transit, roads
Police, Fire
Utilities
Hospitals
Schools
Downtowners and suburbanites can dislike each other forever, they don't have to be in love to make this City work.

Agreed. Like there weren't the similar issues before amalgamation?

Many things seem to be running more smoothly to me. Let's take subways. Look how many km of subway we've had in the 15 years since amalgamation was started (assuming Spadina is finished). And at a minimum we get Eglinton in the next 15 years (and more hopefully). We got nothing in the previous 15 years, except an aborted start on Eglinton West.

 

[pw20]

Agreed. Like there weren't the similar issues before amalgamation?

Many things seem to be running more smoothly to me. Let's take subways. Look how many km of subway we've had in the 15 years since amalgamation was started (assuming Spadina is finished). And at a minimum we get Eglinton in the next 15 years (and more hopefully). We got nothing in the previous 15 years, except an aborted start on Eglinton West.

Again - if you look at the really big issues that are currentlyfacing Toronto (I think transit is the biggest) amalgamation or de-amalgamation doesn't really move the needle. Amalgamation is a red herring in a much larger discussion that needs to be had over regional issues, the need for a regional planning authority etc... (in my opinion)

I hope the persona who called my idea for a larger Metro Governemnt "crazy" meant that it was "crazy good" (And I agree its a bit of a wacky idea, but crazy is better than cracky).

 

[JWBF]

Specifically, what doesn't work well that is the fault of amalgamation?
Transit, roads
Police, Fire
Utilities
Hospitals
Schools
Downtowners and suburbanites can dislike each other forever, they don't have to be in love to make this City work.

There will always be an enmity between people in Toronto, I personally don't care where you come from, I form my opinions on the experiences I have with people. It does seem more viral after amalgamation, mostly an electoral issue. We don't "insert area" making decisions for "insert area". The Fords have used this ploy flagrantly.

Not exactly the fault of the amalgamation but probably part and parcel of the "Common Sense Revolution", the canceling of the Eglinton West subway and truncation of the Sheppard subway built up more anamosity.

As for utilities and other inferstructure, the "MegaCity" happened in to short a time (and against people's wishes) to provide a properly strong base, and it creating more problems.

 

[spider]

Again - if you look at the really big issues that are currentlyfacing Toronto (I think transit is the biggest) amalgamation or de-amalgamation doesn't really move the needle.

The point here is to explain why amalgamation screwed up Transit in your opinion. Your opinion alone as some sort of gospel found on stone tablets isn't helpful, you have to tell us what went wrong, why and how to fix it or you are wasting everyone's time on your fantasies.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I'm sure Forest Hill will be happy to be independent again...and go back to getting their garbage picked up twice a week (and from the back of their houses....no messy garbage at the curb for them).

Let's take subways. Look how many km of subway we've had in the 15 years since amalgamation was started

Actually all of it....amalgamation was started in 1953. By the time 1998 rolled along, 3/4 of the city's services was run from the upper tier anyway.

At the time, Metro was a great idea and served this city well in the end.

I'm confused when people say "de-amagamattion". Are you talking about going back to a two-tiered municipal government....or complete municipal separation as it was prior to 1953?

 

[FutureBuilder]

Well, before amalgamation East York, Etobicoke, North York, and even Scarborough were run much better than the City of Toronto. (I can't speak for York).

The "Mega City" had the effect of bringing everyone and everything down to the lowest common denominator... which happened to be the City of Toronto (with its dirty schools, politics at the local level etc etc). The effect has been services and standards for everyone in East York, Etobicoke, Scarborough, and North York going down... and taxes and fees going up.

The funny thing is, a lot of old City of Toronto ppl don't want this project undone, however, they're looking at another term of Rob Ford and the suburban vote is larger so the downtown agenda will be pushed aside (no matter how much the Star and Globe complain).

The best thing is to just undo this mess. Let the "suburban" people do their thing and let the "progressive" downtowners do theirs.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The best thing is to just undo this mess.

Undo what exactly? Be specific. Like I said, you seem confused about the former municipal structure and its affect (accumulated since 1953) on the whole city.

In the beginning, I'd say it was the "old" city that provided for the development of the boroughs, and then with the transition of the manufacturing jobs out to the boroughs, it evened out. Now that the manufacturing jobs have been bled to the 905 or just evaporated all together, the former boroughs are just less efficient versions of "old" Toronto.

I'd say the former boroughs or "suburbs" are less suburban than other north american counterparts specifically because of the Metro model employed from 1953 to 1998.

What do you mean the former boroughs were "run better"? Are you saying their lower tier functioned better than "old" Toronto's lower tier? How so?

 

[FutureBuilder]

Undo what exactly? Be specific. Like I said, you seem confused about the former municipal structure and its affect (accumulated since 1953) on the whole city.

In the beginning, I'd say it was the "old" city that provided for the development of the boroughs, and then with the transition of the manufacturing jobs out to the boroughs, it evened out. Now that the manufacturing jobs have been bled to the 905 or just evaporated all together, the former boroughs are just less efficient versions of "old" Toronto.

I'd say the former boroughs or "suburbs" are less suburban than other north american counterparts specifically because of the Metro model employed from 1953 to 1998.

What do you mean the former boroughs were "run better"? Are you saying their lower tier functioned better than "old" Toronto's lower tier? How so?

I am saying, the current mess cannot continue. Toronto is going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It is best to declare it a lost cause and mistake and take the mega city apart.

Anyone who lives in East York or North York or Etobicoke will tell you they were better off before the mega city. Way better off and it cost them less.

This reminds me of the EURO currency experiment. Instead of the Europeans admitting it was a mistake, they are too different, it is too costly etc... they cling to a sinking ship. Same with this "mega city" garbage. It cannot work.

 

[GenerationW]

I am saying, the current mess cannot continue. Toronto is going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It is best to declare it a lost cause and mistake and take the mega city apart.

Anyone who lives in East York or North York or Etobicoke will tell you they were better off before the mega city. Way better off and it cost them less.

This reminds me of the EURO currency experiment. Instead of the Europeans admitting it was a mistake, they are too different, it is too costly etc... they cling to a sinking ship. Same with this "mega city" garbage. It cannot work.

I live in North York, and we were not "way better off". And the EURO currency analogy is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

 

[FutureBuilder]

I live in North York, and we were not "way better off". And the EURO currency analogy is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So you are better of now? You are happy with your service level now compared to before? Your schools are better now? Roads?

Do you have any idea how much taxes and fees (at the municipal level) have gone up since amalgamation?

My analogy is fine. Sometimes things don't work out and it's better to call it quits sooner rather than later.

 

[GenerationW]

So you are better of now? You are happy with your service level now compared to before? Your schools are better now? Roads?

Do you have any idea how much taxes and fees (at the municipal level) have gone up since amalgamation?

My analogy is fine. Sometimes things don't work out and it's better to call it quits sooner rather than later.

The same.

Yes.

The same.

Roads might be a bit worse, but it's probably a wash when increased congestion is taken into account.

My taxes and fees have gone up by a reasonable amount taking inflation into account, thanks for asking.

Do you even live in Toronto?

 

[freshcutgrass]

I am saying, the current mess cannot continue. Toronto is going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It is best to declare it a lost cause and mistake and take the mega city apart.

So in other words...you're not really saying anything.

What do you mean by taking it apart? Go back to what exactly? The prior two-tiered municipal system was a constantly changing entity from its inception in 1953 until we moved to single tier system in 1998.

Your perception of things being worse may have nothing to do with changing to a single tier system. In fact it may be even worse than you perceive had we not done it (the efficiencies of a single tier system would bare this out, although it isn't that simple).