2007 Ontario Election: John Tory throws the Election!

[TOinTO]

Creationism raised as Ont. election issue

Too bad. There could have been some worthwhile debate about real issues in this election: pollution, transit, funding municipalities, etc.

But Tory is determined to do himself in by bringing up fringe issues that the public either doesn't want to here about (funding religious schools) or will ridicule.

What's next? Will he restate Ernie Eves passionate support for the Iraq invasion?

 

[Hipster Duck]

Well, there goes any shred (there was a small one) that I will cast a vote for the Tories. It seems to be a uniquely right wing tactic to erect some ridiculous strawman like religion to distract from real issues or champion some meaningless symbolism like cutting councilors paychecks to fill a $600 million dollar hole. Is this a sneaky tactic to distract voters, are they so out of touch of the common problems plaguing Ontario or is that party totally bereft of ideas? I would say it's a good combo of all 3.

I feel like echoing Howard Dean.

"I am sick about talking about the 3 "Gs": Guns, God and Gays."

 

[Edward Skira]

What a joke he's turning out to be. Glad he didn't become mayor.

 

[nicetommy]

I wish he had become mayor... then we wouldn't have been saddled with do-nothing Miller.

 

[Observer Walt]

Before getting shorts too much in a knot, here is another version of what was (allegedly?) said:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ontariovotes2007/story/2007/09/05/ot-creationism-070905.html

I'm actually not in favour of Tory's proposal for school funding, but in fairness he has made it quite clear that funding would go only to schools which teach the Ontario curriculum, use qualified teachers, etc. We're already beginning to hear a lot of hysteria about religion taking over government, etc.

 

[ShonTron]

Except with the reglious lobbies (the headline in a recent Jewish Tribune: "McGuinty Vows to Maintain Discrimination in Ontario"), he's not picking up much support for a plank that's quickly becoming his defining policy. What has happened to Tory? Is he letting himself be spoonfed by the back rooms? I thought he was smarter than that, but I agree with Ed - he's starting to make Miller look pretty good (could you imagine Tory with the budget 'crisis'?)

The Greens at least have the guts to take the opposite tact and come out in support of trashing the Catholic system. For that, I'm actually considering them as a voting option - I am still waivering between the NDP, Liberals and now Greens.

 

[Observer Walt]

Well I kinda like the Greens somewhat too, but certainly not because of this policy plank. The one thing that won't happen is an abolition of the existing Catholic school system. It's been in place since 1867, and was one of the basic compromises that led to Confederation. The chances of the Catholic system being abolished now are none, regardless of who wins the election.

The interesting thing here, IMO, is the "spin" that can be put on a story by the news media. Reading the Globe and Mail story ("Groan and Wail" comes to mind again), then the CBC story, you really would have to conclude that the reporters are talking about two completely different things. To me at least, the CBC story has much more of a ring of truthfulness and reasonableness, as well as being consistent with how John Tory has been quoted numerous times before.

 

[adma]

I thought he was smarter than that, but I agree with Ed - he's starting to make Miller look pretty good

David, or Frank?

Come to think of it, this Red-Tory-dragged-rightward schtick is what led to the Larry Grossman disaster in 1987...

 

[TOinTO]

Before getting shorts too much in a knot, here is another version of what was (allegedly?) said:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ontariovotes2007/story/2007/09/05/ot-creationism-070905.html

Frantic back-peddling by the spin doctors.
I'll admit that the Globe headline seems a bit calculated. They're clearly out to screw Tory for the religious school funding plan. (And good for them!) Note the lengthy series of articles in last Friday and Saturday's paper about the abuses at the Christian college in Brockville.

I'm actually not in favour of Tory's proposal for school funding, but in fairness he has made it quite clear that funding would go only to schools which teach the Ontario curriculum, use qualified teachers, etc. We're already beginning to hear a lot of hysteria about religion taking over government, etc.

Will the inspections ensure that the schools are not waking borders up in the middle of the night to scream at them that they're going to hell? (one of the abuses at the Brockville school).

If they start funding private religious education:

1. the number of these institutions will increase - encouraging migration from the public system. I think this is pretty obvious
2. Schools will push the boundaries as far as possible to meet the funding criteria. So, a private school with a muted historical association to the Anglican church will sprinkle more religious ceremony though its schedule
3. There will be a successful charter challenge from non-religious private schools. You can't fund one school because it's pushing a religious bias and not fund another because it is inclusive of all faiths (and/or lack of faith).
4. I will move my kids out of public school. After all, why put up with the shabby buildings and the wishy washy curriculum when the government will subsidize the Atheistic Materialist school that I'm going to found!

It's a daft plan and damn Tory for a bringing it up. I resent that I may have to vote Liberal to get rid of this numbskull.

 

[junctionist]

The plan is daft because of the grueling challenge of setting up boundaries for funding and avoiding abuse. In the other end, the destruction of the Catholic school system is also daft, because it is the model of how a faith based school system should work. Both the religion and the Ontario curriculum are taught, and in an a matter like the origin of man, neither theory is emphasized. Both are presented, along with the "God had a hand in evolution" theory. It's up to the students to decide for themselves. Giving students the ability to gain a deeper understanding of their faith and the Ontario curriculum of tolerance is in my opinion the best means of respecting our Canadian society's values of diversity and tolerance. Publicly funded Catholic schools are fairly liberal anyway.

John Tory needs something to bring attention away from all the spending announcements the Liberals are making on issues that matter such as transit in the GTA and investments in Northern Ontario. It's sad that he's using a matter he hasn't been too vocal about in the past as now his campaign's focal point.

 

[ShonTron]

Publicly funded Catholic schools are fairly liberal anyway.

I survived a Catholic education and turned out just fine. At least the Catholic Church doesn't push creationism (it having a less literal interpretation of the Bible than many other sects), but a lot of what the Church says is certainly not liberal enough for me. Though I found it a bit different in elementary school, I felt comfortable challenging Catholic dogma in high school, so no, it isn't that bad.

However, the "equality" argument will remain until we get rid of the Catholic school system, Ontario being the only province left that has not addressed the consitutional requirement. The status quo will remain for now, because there are a lot of Catholics, many of them immigrants still, that support the Catholic system, and it will be opening up a hornet's nest, so the Liberals and NDP are quiet. One reason why Davis provided funding beyond Grade 10 - Brampton in the 1970s and 1980s became much more Catholic with Italian and Portugese families moving in.

And if any religion can get funding, would we have to fund schools that teach not creationism, nor evolution, but that we are hosts of spirits trapped by the evil Lord Xenu?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

My Catholic high school had more non-Catholic kids than other TCDSB schools because of the program it offered; it was perhaps 80% Catholic and 20% other. It's hard to tell how many of them belonged to other Christian denominations, though, since only a tiny amount of kids cared enough about religion to have even noticed...in many ways, the Catholic board is "religious" in name only. We had Hindu kids fully partaking in hot dog lunches "because it's not real meat, anyway," Orthodox kids whose holidays would be 'behind schedule' but include better food...there were even two girls in my French class one year who wore the hijab. I sincerely doubt that a Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Mormon, etc., school would be anything but 100% homogenous unless it had a special curriculum (like science or arts).

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

all this started because of the shooting at C.W. Jefferys.

somehow, if this was a religious school, it would have never happened because religious people or people raised with religious values never do bad things.




god bless poor analysis & correlations where there aren't any. after all, if it wasn't for humans making connections where there aren't any, we wouldn't have religion, psychics, racism, prejudice, etc.

the fact that tory is courting the religious vote shows that he has absolutely no meaningful platform.

all public funding for any religious school should be abolished. it's not the governments responsibility to support parents forcing their children to think a certain way.

 

[ShonTron]

The one thing that won't happen is an abolition of the existing Catholic school system. It's been in place since 1867, and was one of the basic compromises that led to Confederation. The chances of the Catholic system being abolished now are none, regardless of who wins the election.

You sure?

Quebec got rid of its separate religion-based school systems (which was Constitutionally enshrined since 1867), as did Newfoundland. I wouldn't discount the idea that it can be done.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

You sure?

Quebec got rid of its separate religion-based school systems (which was Constitutionally enshrined since 1867), as did Newfoundland. I wouldn't discount the idea that it can be done.

but whoever does it will lose the catholic vote.