Lifeless Bay St and University Ave

OK, I don't think what city planners were thinking, but they are unimaginative enough to have turned Bay St and University Ave (north of Queen West) into two completely dull and lifeless major streets right in the center of the city with minimum human activity except cars passing by. Isn't that the greatest shame of our downtown core? Most part of Yonge st northof Dundas is tacky and rundown looking, but at least they provide enough spaces for retail, restaurants etc. Yet those two streets are completely soulless.

Bay St north of Queen is a gigantic collection of endless cheap looking ill-designed condos (except some of the new ones). There is very few commercial activity, not even many cafes. You could walk for 15 minutes all the way to Wellesley without finding anything worth seeing - just 20 or 30 story of concrete. If you don't live there, you never go there. What a shame.

University Ave is much more appealing looking, with the statues and plants in the center as well as more classy-looking buildings. But what geniuses decide that Toronto needs an eight lane avenue full of insurance companies and hospitals and nothing else? So unless you are buying your life insurance policy or becoming sick (interestingly they are related), why would anyone set a foot on University Ave (except taking the subway)? It is nice to walk on it, but the fact that there are almost no cafes, or restaurants or boutique stores makes this majestic street completely irrelevant. When was the last time you have a date on University and Elm st? I mean, the sidewalks are pretty wide, why not put something worth going? Many restaurants/cafes/desert shops with patios which Yonge is not wide enough for? Some bookstores? it is on the subway line, for Christ's sake, does the subway only serve hospital staff?

The lack of any commercial activity on these two streets has led to the overcrowdedness on Yonge St, which is unfortunate. Church st to the east and Spadina to the west both a bit far away from the subway, and also are only partially commercial for more specific demographics (LGBT and the Chinese mostly but no exclusively).

I think compared to most North American cities, Toronto successfully has made downtown a safe and desirable place for people to live, unlike say Los Angeles. But the fact these two centrally located streets don't function as they are supposed to has partially offset this advantage. I've heard rumors about adding more commerce to university ave, but not sure if it is true.

I couldn't agree more. It doesn't make any sense. I live on Bay Street. And you'd think it had be evacuated. I wonder why these two streets have been zoned as dead. Is it part of the official city plan? Or just another example of lethargy.

I don't worry too much about Bay St. because eventually, the bank tower core will begin to expand north of Queen St. Our city is young. It will grow to fill in these dull areas.

As for University Avenue, when I was in Barcelona last week walking along Las Ramblas, I couldn't help but feel University Avenue's ghost superimposed on this beautiful pedestrian walkway. I'd love to see University Av's central corridor redone completely as a wide pedestrian walkway, flanked by inward facing trees and small cafés with outdoor seating dotting the trip up to Queens Park.

MetroMan said:

I don't worry too much about Bay St. because eventually, the bank tower core will begin to expand north of Queen St. Our city is young. It will grow to fill in these dull areas.

As for University Avenue, when I was in Barcelona last week walking along Las Ramblas, I couldn't help but feel University Avenue's ghost superimposed on this beautiful pedestrian walkway. I'd love to see University Av's central corridor redone completely as a wide pedestrian walkway, flanked by inward facing trees and small cafés with outdoor seating dotting the trip up to Queens Park.

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I would LOVE to see that on University Ave, which is actually the perfect street to act as a pedestrian walkway filled with interesting activities. However, the last time University was ever important was the Tamil angry march two years ago.

Last time I was in Paris, I was so envious of all the patio cafes and pattiseries on almost every corner of the street. What makes a city lively, not tall buildings (although I am not against height at all). Right now, University is extremely cold and unapproachable.

I would suggest adding a lot more commercial/recreational activity from Spadina all the way to Jarvis, shopping, dining, arts, markets, everything and that will be something i call a vibrant city. Right now, it is either Yonge/Eaton center of Queen West. It is really not enough for the city of Toronto's size.

Bay Street is soulless to be sure, but as for people it's hardly lacking foot traffic. I lived on Bay at Grosvenor in the '90's and there was minimal foot traffic back then, now days I often walk Bay to avoid Yonge St. when I'm not in the mood for crowds and there are lots of people walking Bay Street now but it becomes pretty desolate by mid-late evening.

I actually love the walk up University Ave.. It's south of King where I hate the street because it goes from a grand boulevard to absolutely nothing, and ends abruptly at Front St by merging into York.

In fact I've had quite a few dates in both the winter and summer where we walk up University Avenue, past Osgoode hall and Canada Life, up to Queens Park and U of T, then up to the Bloor area for dinner/whatever else. I like the discovery district so the only part of University Avenue I think should be changed is how it ends (though it's kind of impossible now).

Bay Street is indeed dead after you pass Old City Hall. Going up to the Atrium on Bay is alright because there are restaurants and whatnot there, but after Gerrard it seems to lose life. It regains some sort of life after Charles but that stretch in between (with RoCP, U Condos, Murano and Burano) has some serious need for retail. I still think it was a huge lost opportunity to put townhomes on Bay (at U Condos) instead of retail, and I don't know what the plan is for Burani's historic podium, but I hope some life is somewhat splashed into it.

Combining people with the amount of traffic on University probably isn't a priority when you remember that Toronto's core is so much more vibrant and active than many other cities. Having a few weaker streets isn't really a big deal, though I do think the 'grand avenue' is wasted a little in terms of visitor friendliness.

As for Las Ramblas - or similarly Nanjing Road in Shanghai - I think that's the one part of the Ford's port lands design that deserves credit. The diagonal pedestrian road with sight lines to the tower is something that WT should incorporate into their master plan if they end up hanging onto their role down there.

I lived at Bay and Gerrard for two years and then moved to King and Church for the past 3 years and the difference is remarkable! My lifestyle has changed very little. I still live in a crappy late-80s condo, shop at a metro across the street, regularly go to second cups for coffee, etc. But ever since moving to King and Church, I feel like I'm always in a better mood and much more motivated to leave home every morning. Here are a few things that I think have made the difference:

1. The sun: Bay street gets very little sun, particularly north of Gerrard. King and Church has areas that are routinely bathed in sun, but there's also a nice mix of shaded areas.
2. Traffic volume and speed: Traffic moves very quickly up and down Bay street and there are a lot of trucks. Anyone who has ever tried sitting outside at a cafe will quickly realize that they have to speak much louder to the person across the table form them. King can get busy, but that usually slows down the cars.
3. Amenities: King and Church is surrounded by places that will make you want to "stop and smell the roses", so to speak: small parks, diverse and tightly packed storefronts, a nice mixture of architectural styles. Bay street's storefronts are notoriously bad. They're also very spread out between lobbies, parking garage entrances, fire escapes, exhaust vents, and long stretches of empty wall. Ironically, Bay street does have a great deal of parks and squares, but they're all terrible spaces. College Park is a dump (hopefully that will change). There are many squares at the bases of condos, but every single one of them looks as if they were designed specifically to dissuade people from lingering. They are completely ugly. That is perhaps one of the most frustrating things about the street.

Good points Silence&Motion, especially #2 & #3.
When our first condo was finally built on Bay St. (3 years after we purchased it) we found out a few weeks after we moved in that our dog was over the 25 pound weight restriction (we got the dog while waiting for the condo to be built so we never looked for a "pet clause" when we bought) so we were issued a letter to get rid of the dog or sell. We had a south/west corner unit on the 9th floor at the corner of Bay & Grosvenor, it was terrible for noise both inside and out. Every time the lights changed on Bay Street buses and trucks could be heard rumbling inside the condo. Forget enjoying the balcony, the noise was overwhelming. Addison's used car lot was on the spot where Murano north tower now sits and car alarms would go off regularly every night. Then there's the fire hall on Grosvenor with fire trucks racing either toward Yonge, or past us at Bay St. so there was that. We also felt detached from any type of neighbourhood vibe after living at the corner of Yonge & Bloor for so long with lots of action and most any amenity imaginable only steps away so the decision to sell came very easily. We sold, lived in an apartment for 10 months until our next condo was built at Alexander & Church in the heart of the Church-Wellesley Village where, like yourself, we were so much happier living in a vibrant community with amenities all a short walk away in a surprisingly well soundproofed condo.

In my opinion, University ended up lifeless because of the very nature of the governmental, financial and educational institutions surrounding it, as well as the lack of many people living near it. Contrast it with Spadina, another compatively wide street that borders UofT and is surrounded on both sides by high-density, low-rise residential blocks.

Bay also suffers from the same problems that University suffers from (being near the institutional side of UofT, the government offices and the hospitals), but the problems are exerbated with the fact that it was built up lacking the human scale, a similar problems that also exists at the Central Waterfront.

kkgg7 said:

I would LOVE to see that on University Ave, which is actually the perfect street to act as a pedestrian walkway filled with interesting activities. However, the last time University was ever important was the Tamil angry march two years ago.

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Does the Jack Layton funeral procession count?

adma said:

Does the Jack Layton funeral procession count?

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People tend to remember things that outrage them rather than things that uplift them.

Many so called great cities in North America and Europe have streets that very much resemble university in the sense that they're grad but relatively sterile in the sense that they don't have a lot of pedestrian activity due to a lack of retail and the like ... this isn't a Toronto thing.

I think in many ways university is fine the way it is. Bay's another story but I find it a lot better then it was say 5/10 years ago - a lot of the new condos have brought retail, nothing amazing, but there's a lot more streetlife then people are giving it credit, particularly north of Queen / Dundas.

I think what needs to improve downtown are some of the smaller east/west streets west of Yonge between say Dundas and Welesly. More retail, more condos / offices, would be great.

Has anyone been to a downtown business district in the United States, on a weekend? I have, and Bay Street and University Avenue have more life. Of course, there would be less than Church Street or Spadina Avenue, the DBD is mostly offices. However, they are still used as walkways, which the U.S. cities don't.

Add more mixed buildings into the mix, and Bay & University will be more lively.

For comparison, check out some of the office parks in the suburbs, where they zoned out residential and are only single-use offices.

I understand the complaints regarding Bay street. However, what is wrong with University ave? Have you been on Broadway South in NYC? Or in fact anywhere south of Barclay in NYC? Have you been on State Street in Chicago? Or any other CBD area in a major city? These parts of town have very little street life outside of working hours. A city needs these streets. Have you been to France's CBD? It's nothing like the rest of France. Where would all these jobs go? University was never meant to be a shopping dinning street. More work needs to go to improve Dundas, Church, Wellesley.