Black Lives Matter Toronto

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am not sure what we agree to disagree on. You are talking about neo-nazis and the like. I am talking about the exercise of that power in situations that don't involve neo-nazis, such as this situation.

That's where we disagree - you believe that said power to judge and exclude is limited to the extreme and therefore use of that power beyond that is "scary"; I am saying that it isn't.

AoD

 

[JWBF]

I don't really feel the need to label it with loaded terms like "victim mentality" - like it or not some of the grievances are more than valid (the evidence is fairly clear on those), but holding them to the same standard as one who is meant to exercise power is off-base. I mean, do we *really* want to go down the road and compare the two when they have very little to do with one another?

AoD

Ok, lets call it "passive aggressive".

I don't live in black and white world, so no, BLM should not be judged as such, however, I don't believe in overlooking one thing because I support another. A good example is if the Fords contribute to charities then they should not be accountable for the shittier things they do or have done.

BLM are in, general terms, nationalistic like their parent group TNBP. There are other points but I think this one is more sufficient right now. Trump and BLM are not dissimilar, the short proof is the politics, and tools they use to gain attention.

If anything I'm sure you can agree that Trump and BLM are both outcomes/consequences of the same politics and their corruption.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If anything I'm sure you can agree that Trump and BLM are both outcomes/consequences of the same politics and their corruption.

Actually I don't necessarily think so. However misguided and/or correct, BLM is a response to the very well documented violence in the US (the offshoot here, on carding and presumption of guilt); a whole host of negative socioeconomic outcomes; etc. DJT is what? A population that felt slighted by the "mainstream" and the elites, experienced job losses due to changes in the economy, etc. Not exactly comparable.

AoD

 

[Jaye101]

AoD[/QUOTE]

This feels like a really roundabout way of making a statement. It's true that a lot of work and progress still needs to happen within the police force as a whole, and that excluding them from participating in Pride does send a message. The thing is they've been part of Pride for awhile now which means that somewhere down the line, it was felt that they've tried and made enough of an effort to be accepted but now, by kicking them out, isn't it sort of saying "what you did before was good enough then but isn't good enough now so get out"? Doesn't that just lead to feelings of exclusion and disrespect. It would be a different matter if they had never been allowed in but they have which means there was acceptance and now that acceptance has been revoked. And it's especially awkward since they'll still be there in an official capacity which, to me, says "we need you here to do your job but we don't want you around outside of that".

You hit the nail on the head. At one point members of the LGBTQ community decided that Police involvement was okay and that the pain experienced through systematic violence was distant enough to allow their involvement.

This decision was made by white members of the LGBTQ community who no longer experienced violence on wide spread levels.

This decision is in contradiction to the experience of Trans, Black and Aboriginal LGBTQ community. They stood up to say they aren't ready. You do not control how they feel. You do not know their experience. By not respecting their desires the message is that Pride does not represent their LGBTQ experience.

I'm sure you've heard of White Feminism. If you're really looking to host the police maybe we should just segregate Pride along racial lines since clearly the fight for white gay rights does not respect the LGBTQ experience of visible minorities

 

[Skeezix]

That's where we disagree - you believe that said power to judge and exclude is limited to the extreme and therefore use of that power beyond that is "scary"; I am saying that it isn't.

AoD

I didn't actually say that. What I did say is that neo-nazis and other extremist examples are a lousy way in which to assess exclusions from Pride.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You hit the nail on the head. At one point members of the LGBTQ community decided that Police involvement was okay and that the pain experienced through systematic violence was distant enough to allow their involvement.

This decision was made by white members of the LGBTQ community who no longer experienced violence on wide spread levels.

This decision is in contradiction to the experience of Trans, Black and Aboriginal LGBTQ community. They stood up to say they aren't ready. You do not control how they feel. You do not know their experience. By not respecting their desires the message is that Pride does not represent their LGBTQ experience.

I'm sure you've heard of White Feminism. If you're really looking to host the police maybe we should just segregate Pride along racial lines since clearly the fight for white gay rights does not respect the LGBTQ experience of visible minorities

Well, if the intention is to segregate, why take over the organization and then use it as a vehicle to exclude the police? Besides, the participation of the police is not a one-sided matter either - I am fairly certain there is a significant minority at TPS who'd view being there as an affront in the first place. At a strategic level, guess how they'd feel now? And how would it affect race relationship between TPS, the community at large and VisMin LGBTQ members?

AoD

 

[Jaye101]

Strongly disagree with this. If the phenomena is real, it is logical, measurable - and can be understood. And you made minorities sound like one monolithic thing, which it certainly isn't. If you claim that others can never understand, I am not sure what empowered you (i.e. anyone taking your position) to speak for everyone since you would not be position to truly understand them either (the logical conclusion of PoMo analysis - the centrality of one's lived experiences and elevating each and everyone's perspective to the level of "truth"). And if people can never understand what it meant unless they have lived through the exact same experiences, why do/would we even bother to talk to one another? Clearly that is untenable.



That's why BLM is part of the event and so it should be, but we are going way beyond inclusion at this point.

AoD

Logical and measurable? Seems rather dismissive of a fact that is pervasive to our collective history. And rather insensitive to think you could really interpret this violence solely as number when much of it never reaches the public realm.

BLM TO is founded by members of the LGBTQ community. This is their parade. Let the police do what they're supposed to, their job.

It's not my job to speak for everyone. I'm responding to a request by a civil rights organization on the symbolic presence of police at a parade that is supposed to reflect their struggle. They reached a consensus. I have a duty as a fellow human being to analyze whether a violence has been committed and if their arguments are founded.

Does the Police force march in MLK jr day parades in the US? Does the German army march for Holocaust remembrance?

There is a long documented history of systematic violence against members of the LGBTQ community at the hands of police. If police officers are to be included in a symbolic way there needs to a consensus between all the groups whose struggle is represented by this event.

 

[Jaye101]

Well, if the intention is to segregate, why take over the organization and then use it as a vehicle to exclude the police? Besides, the participation of the police is not a one-sided matter either - I am fairly certain there is a significant minority at TPS who'd view being there as an affront in the first place. At a strategic level, guess how they'd feel now? And how would it affect race relationship between TPS, the community at large and VisMin LGBTQ members?

AoD

Take over the organization? This is their parade as much as it is a white memeber of the LGBTQ community. Is it not? It seems like white members of the LGBTQ community identify more with police officers than actual LGBTQ minorities suffering at the hands of police.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Logical and measurable? Seems rather dismissive of a fact that is pervasive to our collective history. And rather insensitive to think you could really interpret this violence solely as number when much of it never reaches the public realm.

BLM TO is founded by members of the LGBTQ community. This is their parade. Let the police do what they're supposed to, their job.

It's not my job to speak for everyone. I'm responding to a request by a civil rights organization on the symbolic presence of police at a parade that is supposed to reflect their struggle. They reached a consensus. I have a duty as a fellow human being to analyze whether a violence has been committed and if their arguments are founded.

Does the Police force march in MLK jr day parades in the US? Does the German army march for Holocaust remembrance?

There is a long documented history of systematic violence against members of the LGBTQ community at the hands of police. If police officers are to be included in a symbolic way there needs to a consensus between all the groups whose struggle is represented by this event.

I didn't dismiss it at all, you've just said that it is impossible to understand the challenges facing VisMin as someone who is not (and then said your job is to listen, not to speak). What I am challenging is 1. if the oppression is real, and can be measured - which you have agreed to - then one can understand it. That contradicted your claim that it can't be. 2. You just spoken on behalf of all VisMin LGBTQ individuals:

Take over the organization? This is their parade as much as it is a white memeber of the LGBTQ community. Is it not? It seems like white members of the LGBTQ community identify more with police officers than actual LGBTQ minorities suffering at the hands of police.

I am one, and I reject your monolithic viewpoints - and by extension, I am not sure if that consensus is all that much of one. This is as much our parade as yours.

AoD

 

[to_l]

You hit the nail on the head. At one point members of the LGBTQ community decided that Police involvement was okay and that the pain experienced through systematic violence was distant enough to allow their involvement.

This decision was made by white members of the LGBTQ community who no longer experienced violence on wide spread levels.

This decision is in contradiction to the experience of Trans, Black and Aboriginal LGBTQ community. They stood up to say they aren't ready. You do not control how they feel. You do not know their experience. By not respecting their desires the message is that Pride does not represent their LGBTQ experience.

I'm sure you've heard of White Feminism. If you're really looking to host the police maybe we should just segregate Pride along racial lines since clearly the fight for white gay rights does not respect the LGBTQ experience of visible minorities

Certainly, it is a very difficult task for one overarching body to completely embody and represent the struggles and experiences of every single part that compose its whole, especially when the parts are disparate and unique; it doesn't mean that it shouldn't try. However, the point I'm trying to make is that acceptance was given and to rescind it now just seems like a step back with very little room for an amicable reconciliation. For better or worse, Pride allowed and accepted TPS participation, and progress has been made towards better understanding and respect which is not to say that TPS still doesn't have a long way to go. But like Pride, it's an entity composed of many different parts and to disallow and disregard the parts that support the community because of the actions of those who do not, seems pretty divisive. This just feels like it would give more ammunition for detractors of change and progress, within TPS, to use against the community. Wouldn't it be better to attempt a more moderate line of negotiation instead of an all-or-nothing ultimatum? Isn't the point of Pride participation (barring the desire for corporate monetary gains) that the institution/company/etc. supports the LGBTQ community? And by banning them after the fact, doesn't it imply that the community no longer wants their support?

 

[picard102]

BLM TO is founded by members of the LGBTQ community. This is their parade.

Also theives and racists.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Also theives and racists.

Disagree with them yes, but is that really necessary or fair?

AoD

 

[jje1000]

Now let's be honest, Sandra Hudson did bill a quarter million from U of T students as 'overtime' and Yusra Khogali touts Black supremacy in her tweets and Facebook page.

We need to be wary about letting those people near the levers of power as the ends seems to justify the means in their opinion.

 

[Migos]

Yes, Hudson is a thief. Yes, Khogali is a racist. Who would take these people seriously? Come on...

She seems mentally ill to be honest.

 

[gabe]

The city should pull it's funding from Pride. BLM is a very racist homophobic group. Last years Pride i witnessed first hand homophobic slurs coming out the mouths of BLM supporters.