How Can Toronto improve? How can Toronto become a better city overall?

[arvelomcquaig]

You realise that this stance is not the result of scientific study, it is merely your opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to belittle anyone else as they are equally entitled to their opinions.

I repeat: I never said anything about hating anyone; I wasn't criticising the denizens of suburbs, I was criticising the sort of urban planning within which they live. There was no belittling in my reply.

Also, it's not a mere opinion, and it's not equally valid to say that suburban planning is better. There are MANY more objective reasons and studies (as so eloquently described by RC8 and others) to support the belief that denser communities are better for people.

 

[spider]

We have all heard the voluminous justification pumped out ad nauseum by professors who are required to publish or perish. Their output generally consists of pages and pages of foot notes linking their current volume of drivel to that of their fellows and little original thought, after all, they are not going to call into question the status quo that provides them with a nice living are they?

If density is so desirable, why is it suburban North York entered amalgamation with a healthy bottom line instead of proving to be a millstone around the neck of the original City of Toronto? Just askin'.

 

[RC8]

We have all heard the voluminous justification pumped out ad nauseum by professors who are required to publish or perish. Their output generally consists of pages and pages of foot notes linking their current volume of drivel to that of their fellows and little original thought, after all, they are not going to call into question the status quo that provides them with a nice living are they?

If density is so desirable, why is it suburban North York entered amalgamation with a healthy bottom line instead of proving to be a millstone around the neck of the original City of Toronto? Just askin'.

Wow. Troll.

 

[jn_12]

We have all heard the voluminous justification pumped out ad nauseum by professors who are required to publish or perish. Their output generally consists of pages and pages of foot notes linking their current volume of drivel to that of their fellows and little original thought, after all, they are not going to call into question the status quo that provides them with a nice living are they?

If density is so desirable, why is it suburban North York entered amalgamation with a healthy bottom line instead of proving to be a millstone around the neck of the original City of Toronto? Just askin'.

First of all, way to paint every professor with the same brush. I'm sure everyone who does your profession does it in the exact same way, and probably to the lowest standards possible too.

Second, while I can't comment on pre-amalgation North York, it is blantantly obvious why going forward, increased density is a must, even if so far we've been able to get away with the sprawl we've created. In terms of cost of services, infrastructure, maintainence, etc. striving for higher densities is a way to minimize those costs and maximizing value.

 

[jje1000]

Most of those people in the GTA did not live in downtown Toronto because they chose not to for reasons important to them then and still valid now. You may be surprised to learn that most suburban Toronto residents consider you "downtowners" a curious breed but we graciously tolerate your holier-than-thou attitude.

'Tis an interesting remark by a member that choses not to partake in the discussion, but rather shoot off little condescending remarks at people with differing opinions (because they are seemingly trying to push their opinions on him).

 

[adma]

Well, if there's an undertone of silent-majority populist disgruntlement, keep in mind that spider is, if I may deduce from past posts, a veteran of local 1990s Reform Party shenanigans. In practice, they've been the strangling kudzu of interweb message forums ever since the glory days of Usenet...

 

[GenerationW]

Look no further than craft beer availability. So many major cities' bars and pubs are now serving locally produced better quality beer. Almost no suburban establishments anywhere are. In the suburbs, whoever pays for the ads and the big signs gets the customers independently of the quality of the product.

Craft beer availability is the biggest argument in favour of urban density? Really???

 

[jje1000]

Craft beer availability is the biggest argument in favour of urban density? Really???

You could say this extends to all sorts of products and services.

However, there are many interesting independent shops found in strip malls all around the suburbs so I guess it only applies to certain things.

 

[RC8]

Craft beer availability is the biggest argument in favour of urban density? Really???

As jje points out, it extends to most products. Beer is a great example because it's not hard to find 'locally' produced beer while it might be harder to find locally produced cheddar cheese, etc.

There's obviously independent places being run in the suburbs, but it's nowhere near the amount you find in more densely populated areas.

In Mississauga, for example, you can only find non-franchise non-chain establishments on a regular basis in the Port Credit, Hurontario-Dundas, and Streetsville. All those areas are pedestrian friendly and appropriately serviced by transit for the most part, they have also historically had higher density than most of Mississauga.

Most independent businesses in Mississauga are run down budget places appealing to minorities that are looking for something the North American mainstream hasn't mastered yet. That's a stark contrast to the sorts of successful independent businesses that pop up in denser pedestrian friendly neighbourhoods. Show me a suburban equivalent to Pizzeria Libretto, Arepa Cafe, or L'Espresso.

Likewise, show me independent furniture places in a suburban setting that compare to the many you find on King East. Or antique book shops. The only ones I ever encountered while I lived in Mississauga were in, that's right, Port Credit.

Anywhere I've lived or visited (I've lived in Caracas, Santiago, Miami, Toronto and Mississauga - visited Washington DC, New York, Buenos Aires, London, Paris, etc) the phenomenon is the same. The more suburban/lower density an area turns, the less variety of product availability and successful independent businesses there are. Jane Jacobs made these observations way before I did, mind you.

 

[Dan416]

Your observations re: Mississauga are mostly correct, but there are the (occasional) independent shops outside of the old towns of Mississauga, but you're right a lot of them are more "ethnic" (but not all).

Unfortunately the "avenues" of Mississauga will never support the kind of dense pedestrian friendly landscape that the Toronto avenues do. They recently widened (needlessly in my mind) Britannia to 6 lanes between Hurontario and Creditview (and widened it to 4 lanes over the Credit River). Consequently, there's STILL a bottleneck. They should have just kept it 4 lanes the whole way through, or built a bus lane, or bike lanes. Regardless, 6 lanes of cars was really unnecessary here.

 

[Long Island Mike]

To be fair, we should compare New York in 2011 with New York in 1975, and Toronto in 2011 with Toronto in 1975. It's true that New York city is a lot more gentrified and expensive to live in in 2011 than 1975, but for those poor suckers who got priced out of Manhattan, the city made up for it by improving the quality of life in other areas : crime is at its lowest since 1950, the subways aren't slathered in graffiti and generally run on time and don't break down, parks are immaculate and looked after - even in poor outer boroughs, and with a lot of the state-of-good-repair issues behind it, the city is investing in progressive programs and infrastructure, most notably its excellent bike network.

Lest we forget that Toronto is also a lot more expensive to live in in 2011 than it was in 1975. But think about the quality of life changes that have happened since then: in 1975 Toronto had one of the most celebrated transit systems in the world, was known for being spotlessly clean and was the envy of cities everywhere for the quality of its municipal governance. In 2011, Toronto's transit system is dirty, riddled with customer service problems and suffers from the highest fares on the continent; our roads are rutted with potholes and our sidewalks filthy, and our municipal governance is a cruel joke. Our violent crime rate hasn't worsened, but it is increasingly concentrated among a certain population in certain areas. I would argue that for many Torontonians, and for some Torontonians especially, quality of life has deteriorated since the 1970s.

Toronto is still more affordable and still has a better quality of life than New York, but increasingly I feel like we're that guy going down the down escalator and looking at a guy going up the up escalator and saying "Ha ha! I'm still higher up than that guy!"

HD: Interesting thought and comparison between NYC and Toronto here...In the 70s-1975 NYC was going gradually downhill after suffering from years of "White Flight" to the suburban areas and the Fiscal Crisis was deepening...in my opinion NYC hit rock bottom around 1977 and well-publicized incidents like the riots following the July 1977 Blackout and the Son of Sam terror/murder spree targeting young people that Summer did nothing but hurt the City's reputation...

Toronto was a much nicer place to be back then...but I believe that many who have left Toronto since the 70s have been priced out and not fled due to crime or other Urban problems for the most part am I right?
NYC has come back since those days...but it still has its problems and in some cases people are "priced out" of their original neighborhoods...

Long Island Mike

 

[toraerach]

Most independent businesses in Mississauga are run down budget places appealing to minorities that are looking for something the North American mainstream hasn't mastered yet. That's a stark contrast to the sorts of successful independent businesses that pop up in denser pedestrian friendly neighbourhoods. Show me a suburban equivalent to Pizzeria Libretto, Arepa Cafe, or L'Espresso.

Although this might have very little to do with density and the built form in and of itself. Remember, until recently many of those same dense downtown neighbourhoods were filled with independent "run down budget places appealing to minorities." That suburban strip malls have transformed from generic chains into mini-ethnic villages actually redeems them (to a degree) in my mind. You may be far more likely to find interesting retail in a suburban strip mall in, say, Mississauga or Scarborough, than you would in a new condo podium downtown (though that's not a hard and fast rule obviously). That's not to say the built form of the suburbs is necessarily responsible for that - more that this strip mall vibrancy sprouts up despite poor urban planning.

 

[TonyV]

Two streets form what I refer to as the big t": Bay Street from Dundas to Richmond, crossed by Queen Street from Church to University. The "big t" aesthetic needs a refresh, redo, rethink, to pull it into context with the city that surrounds. Right now, everything about the "big t" is piecemeal and clumsy. Landscaping work and perhaps some public art could pull it all together. Hopefully the NPS renovation will be a catalyst.

The Yonge initiative put forward recently by Kristin Wong-Tam is ideal. A rethink / revamp of the "big t" would be a great followup.

 

[Tewder]

Agreed, considering it such a central area.

 

[TonyV]

^ 3000th post, Tewder. You've been busy!