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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

Most HSR lines have a fairly strong commutter ridership (whether daily or weekly between family home and a pied-a-terre).
Yes, because most HSR lines are built because the ridership exists and the mode is competitive with other modes.

Nobody would be thinking of spending that much money on a line that couldn't generate the above. Yet here we are in Southern Ontario, doing the unthinkable once again. 1-stop 6km subways in suburbs, and HSR.
 
I don't know where you get your cost figures from, but these are the cost figures I

Scenario B. Phase 1 capital costs. Roughly. And my reference was from the post being responded to.

Kitchener is badly needed and will have a big price tag even if it's conventional speed.

Exactly. Industry is asking for it. And the issue here is very specific. They are at a competitive disadvantage because they are one of the few tech hubs where the international airport is so far away and they don't have feeder flights. And the major city is also far away.

Meanwhile, Google is building a massive multi-billion dollar campus in downtown San Jose specifically to take advantage of high speed rail and allow its workforce to avoid high Bay Area housing prices.

They better put a price on the train for riders before they do anything significant. Go transit passes from the GTA suburbs push $400/month. If this is higher than that, it won’t be a commuter line. If it need’s massive government subsidies, it won’t get built.

Why do people assume that if you commute it means daily? More than likely we will see exurban commute patterns. People who don't need to go in everyday can live further out and afford more expensive trips.

because most HSR lines are built because the ridership exists and the mode is competitive with other modes.

What's the BCR for Scenario B, Phase 1?

So where do you get your justification that the ridership does not exist? I'd like to know what the policy requirement is for ridership for HSR. What's the threshold at which there is sufficient or insufficient ridership?

And that business case was diluted because they went to London. If this line just went from Toronto to Kitchener, the costs would be lower and BCR substantially higher.

If anything, cut GO service at Guelph (or even Acton) and make hourly HSR service to Kitchener and beyond their major regional train service.
 
Or we could take the large sums of money that HSR would cost and actually benefit Ontarians through tax breaks, dealing with hydro costs, or actually investing in a Relief Line that would serve more people per week than HSR would a year.
This is a crucial point that affects far more than just Ontario.

London, UK, albeit with no regional governance (provincial in Canada's case) to complicate or exacerbate political decision (albeit it has seriously so in the past until reaching a new rail transit governance model) has made a decision based on the logic Wisla states. Unfortunately, you can't please everyone, hard decisions have to be made, but Crossrail, one of the most successful massive transit projects in the world, is a Company of which both the City of London (TfL) and the national government (Network Rail) are equal shareholders. It has invoked the wrath of other regions in the nation due to the funding from national coffers. However, the *yield* from that investment is *many times greater* for national GDP than if the regions got equal funding.

It's one of the pitfalls of effective governance, choices have to be made, but until Ontario can find a far better way to create *arm's length* transit planning where the municipalities are partners, not incidentals, and that governance be spun-off to a *stand-alone corporation* that makes decisions bases on the most pressing need, not political convenience, then Ontario is doomed to be a laggard compared to other world jurisdictions.

Wisla is absolutely right about the Relief Line, and done the way I propose, as a *Regional Relief Line* (serving Toronto and beyond) $ per $ it makes far more sense than any HSR as proposed ever will. How QP sells that is a very real sticking point, but emphasizing a 'one seat ride to/from the exurbs from Toronto's core' is going to be essential to it.

Segments of the proposed HSR could/should be built to serve as an RER/HFR+ by-pass in lieu of the Missing Link (remember that promise? All of them?) to allow electrification to K/W and perhaps beyond to London, if a business case can be made for HFR to there. *Later* at such time an HSR line can make economic sense, then there's been no waste in establishing a RoW with no interference from CN or CP, and it can also loop into the GTAA if the funding is available (GTAA claims it will be).

This isn't a case of HSR v HFR/RER. It's a case of building solely passenger RoWs where desperately needed first, and then expanded later if/when needed by a fiscal case for HSR
being made.
 
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I like European high speed trains. For Europe.

But here:

The ball first! Focus, focus!
Let's first see GO RER electrification.

Focus on the ball, focus on the ball.
Referee:

*blows whistle*
*blows whistle*
*ballgame currently ignoring referee*

Ball out of bounds! Foul, foul! Out of order!

*keeps helpessly blowing whistle*
 
Referee:

*blows whistle*
*blows whistle*
*ballgame currently ignoring referee*

Ball out of bounds! Foul, foul! Out of order!

*keeps helpessly blowing whistle*

Everyone who is advocating for HSR in Southern Ontario...

Please watch the tv show "Dreamland" on Netflix. Season 1, episode 3.

Here is the synopsis of said episode: "Jim pushes Tony into investigating the feasibility of a very fast train connecting Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane despite nearly 50 years of studies positing its lack of viability. Amy audits the office's safety protocols."
 
For Southwestern Ontario, HSR is about a lot more than commuting. It would connect the country’s financial centre, with the country’s technological centre of innovation, with the largest aviation hub.

That just sounds like UPX with a stop in Liberty village ;)
 
@WislaHD

You still haven't answered my question. I want to know what the ridership threshold for HSR is. Can you point me to a document which lays out and justifies this threshold?

We can discuss Netflix reviews after that.
 
I think we need to ask/answer if the Toronto - KW is really a tech corridor or just two tech clusters 100 km apart?

I always get the sense that the Mayors of those respective cities only agree to call it a corridor, and occasionally mention the cities in between, to get political support from the politicians in the cities/towns in between. I don't think they care about what is in between them nor do they care if any services end up serving them.....as long as the two clusters at the end are happy.
 
I think we need to ask/answer if the Toronto - KW is really a tech corridor or just two tech clusters 100 km apart?

Education and employment is 2 distinct clusters. However, if you track the students/employees, a large number live between those 2 clusters and inevitably spend their salary on shops/housing between those 2 clusters.

Based on the spread of economic benefits, particularly the middle/upper management that rotates between the KW and Toronto offices, I'd argue it's a corridor.
 
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I think we need to ask/answer if the Toronto - KW is really a tech corridor or just two tech clusters 100 km apart?

I always get the sense that the Mayors of those respective cities only agree to call it a corridor, and occasionally mention the cities in between, to get political support from the politicians in the cities/towns in between. I don't think they care about what is in between them nor do they care if any services end up serving them.....as long as the two clusters at the end are happy.

It may have been just two clusters 100km apart years ago. That is rapidly changing. Just look at the amount of reverse commuting between the two cities.

The cities are also realizing that their strengths are complementary. Sadly, they've only realized after looking at the Bay Area. For example, down there, you have the tech companies in San Jose, and the marketing and finance firms in San Francisco. They end up forming a corridor of sorts. The situation here is analogous. We have tech firms in Waterloo. And we have finance, marketing and legal in Toronto. For both Toronto and Waterloo to thrive, they have to be connected.

Had they said a high speed train to Peterborough, I would have agreed that it's a waste. But there's clearly a case for Waterloo. And I'd argue we don't even have to go to London right away. Just spend $3-4 billion and get to Kitchener. It's already going to take years because we need the Kitchener Corridor to be electrified. So we're not talking earlier than a decade really.
 
It may have been just two clusters 100km apart years ago. That is rapidly changing. Just look at the amount of reverse commuting between the two cities.

The cities are also realizing that their strengths are complementary. Sadly, they've only realized after looking at the Bay Area. For example, down there, you have the tech companies in San Jose, and the marketing and finance firms in San Francisco. They end up forming a corridor of sorts. The situation here is analogous. We have tech firms in Waterloo. And we have finance, marketing and legal in Toronto. For both Toronto and Waterloo to thrive, they have to be connected.

Not going to disagree with that but it is all still just two clusters that, in your's and other's opinions need connecting ......to me a "corridor " has activity of similar focus all along it......and if it was a corridor it would mean that there should be equal connections from any point to any other point along the corridor.......but I really don't think that is the case here.....Toronto and KW are clusters and may need connecting but calling it a "corridor" is just garnering political support from others (and I think it has worked).
 
Not going to disagree with that but it is all still just two clusters that, in your's and other's opinions need connecting ......to me a "corridor " has activity of similar focus all along it......and if it was a corridor it would mean that there should be equal connections from any point to any other point along the corridor.......but I really don't think that is the case here.....Toronto and KW are clusters and may need connecting but calling it a "corridor" is just garnering political support from others (and I think it has worked).

Little nitpicky no? Buzzword are what they are. Would you they rather have said "innovation area"?

But the idea here is also that Guelph has potential (in agri and life sciences research). And Brampton eventually offers potential for manufacturing owing to proximity to airport.
 
Little nitpicky no? Buzzword are what they are. Would you they rather have said "innovation area"?

I don't think I am being nitpicky at all....there is a real difference between a corridor of common activity and two clusters of common activity separated by 100km of difference......and I think there is a difference in how you would connect them.

But the idea here is also that Guelph has potential (in agri and life sciences research). And Brampton eventually offers potential for manufacturing owing to proximity to airport.

Brampton "eventually" offers potential for manufacturing? That is all Brampton ever was is a manufacturing centre.....and that has mostly all given way to warehousing and logistics........but, again, not sure how it fits in with the corridor idea.
 
It can't be a real corridor like the Sillicon Valley because the greenbelt is in the way. Why not rezone the strip of land ~2 km on either side of the 401 between Pearson and Kitchener to be commercial / industrial office park use, the cheap land costs coupled with HSR and easy access to downtown Toronto, UW and Pearson it could be a real winner.
 

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