Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[micheal_can]

I dunno dude, getting two heavy subway extensions to SC is a tall order. This would be more than what was aimed for in Network 2011. The current going rate for all-underground infrastructure for 150m trains is probably 10x the per km costs of early Yonge or Bloor. Wasn't the last quote for Sheppard extension in the $4bn range? That's not to say it doesn't have merit, but even with significant political/private push it's hard to imagine such a thing happening for decades.

Also, over the years we've seen development creep outside the SC planning district. Would a Sheppard extension terminating only at SC be seen as enough by the development industry? Interestingly previous modeling put an upgraded Line 3 extension to Sheppard/Markham as having roughly the same ridership as a subway extension to SC. Which goes to show that expansion can trump a transfer. This was using ancient data. Using more recent data, and considering that Line 3 was shown to have much better development potential, it's logical that Line 3's ridership projection would come out on top.

Line 3 is DOA now, but its E-W alignment through SC does show the potential of some kind of rapid transit bisecting Scarb Centre. I'd say email your local pols and let them know that if you want a Sheppard expansion soonish, the City/TTC should try and cut the costs significantly. I'm sure it can be done, and 4-car/100m max length for stations would provide more than enough capacity for this millennium. If this can cut the cost by a good margin, and perhaps allow for easterly expansion than previously proposed, I think it could gain traction.

I get what you are getting at.

The real issue comes down to how we build. We build not when the demand is there, but when there is an overwhelming political support is there. Eglinton Subway and Sheppard Subway are both examples of that.

There are busier streets that need Streetcars/LRT more than the ones they list as new lines. Steeles is a good example of that. No word on a Steeles LRT, is there?

Demand on the Queen and King lines are at a point that they need their own ROW. When will those be built?

The point?
This city needs at least double the Subway lines and km it has. The city could use likely triple the Streetcar/LRT it has now.

We are playing catch up for decades of nothing. We are paying for decades of promises being made and broken.

There are certain current natural extensions that should be built as subways. The replacement of the SRT is one of them.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why not? Most major cities around the world that has Buses, LRT, and Subways use this kind of model. So if you're in the suburbs, you take a bus to a LRT, which leads to a East-West Subway, which leads to a North-South Subway heading downtown. Multiple transfers is normal unless you have diagonal "express" routes.

Most major cities have suburban rail. I have never taken the subway 20 stops in any European city. That's what suburban rail is for.

Toronto is absolutely f'd up. We don't have a real suburban rail system. So we end up with 3-4 transfers to get to the core. Ridiculous.

Here's how transit would work if we had GO RER today with full TTC fare and service integration:

Bus -> Suburban Rail -> Subway. Going from Scarborough to Etobicoke: Bus -> Suburban Rail -> Suburban rail -> LRT or bus.

 

[amnesiajune]

Going from Scarborough to Etobicoke: Bus -> Suburban Rail -> Suburban rail -> LRT or bus.

In reality it would be just one suburban rail line. The reason why Go Trains all terminate at Union (and why Lakeshore trains don't) is that they only operate one-way service for the most part.

 

[Palma]

Well at least this time he is admitting that he changed his mind.

I find it hard to believe that he never wanted the Shepard subway extended to scabourgh town centre. He was for the scarborough subway after originally saying LRT was the best way to go

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For all Sheppard commuters they will go bus to subway in one shot. For Malvern residents it would be Bus-Subway-Subway and that's better than Bus-LRT-Subway-Subway. As for those residents to the West its even more ideal as the first short subway stretch adds an extra layer of inconvenience.

This subway loop, Crosstown LRT extension & Ellesmere BRT is an optimal solution and it wont take much to add Malvern to the LRT line once we have more clarity that this is the direction . In the end Malvern residents will be very well served and more importantly Scarborough as a whole will be far better served.

But there's not enough of them to support that. The only benefit of this is closing the loop. The Crosstown East LRT is already coming online, that's being built. Bloor to STC is fine, but the ridership isn't there on Sheppard.

As I see it, this has to do with all the complaining about the one stop subway extension.

Do we want to replace LRT in 20-40 years, or bite the bullet and build what is needed now and for the future?

Bloor and Yonge used to also be streetcar lines. Now, those lines are underground and are a subway. Surface LRT/Streetcar is not a bad idea, but in a city like Toronto, they are too short of a solution.

This about the sheppard east line. Do you support that subway?

"Future proof" is a lousy excuse to overbuild on transit. You end up paying huge subsidies to run the system for decades, for ridership that may not even come.

It is very possible that the LRT IS the future proofed solution, for the time frame we are talking.

As for Malvern, they've been promised RT for years. The RT was originally supposed to be extended up there. Then the three Scarborough LRTs were supposed to run all the way there. And now? Nothing.

Yeah, keep waiting Malvern.

Crosstown East. Malvern is getting their transit.

 

[micheal_can]

But there's not enough of them to support that. The only benefit of this is closing the loop. The Crosstown East LRT is already coming online, that's being built. Bloor to STC is fine, but the ridership isn't there on Sheppard.

This about the sheppard east line. Do you support that subway?

Sheppard shouldn't have been built. It goes nowhere and doesn't have the ridership. However, if we are going to make use of it, it needs to be extended. It first should connect to Downsview Station, and then to STC. Then, it might prove to be a worthwhile investment.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sheppard shouldn't have been built. It goes nowhere and doesn't have the ridership. However, if we are going to make use of it, it needs to be extended. It first should connect to Downsview Station, and then to STC. Then, it might prove to be a worthwhile investment.

I guess were stuck. I saw this coming as soon as De baeremaker opened his mouth. I think Tory will cave.

 

[ssiguy2]

This endless transfer debate is even more reason why RER should also include a crosstown of Malvern/Summerhill/Miminco using the current CP line. This would get rid of many of the endless transfers and provide far superior service.

 

[micheal_can]

I guess were stuck. I saw this coming as soon as De baeremaker opened his mouth. I think Tory will cave.

And do what?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And do what?

Agree to fund sheppard east.

 

[micheal_can]

Agree to fund sheppard east.

And that is a bad thing?

 

[TransitBart]

However, this story has yet to be concluded. The subway extension (and LRT) has been subjected to a cost increase in recent months. This will open up the debate once again.

Actually, I believe the debate is over. Some here and elsewhere may not like the cost. The ship has sailed on this one. Much better to debate funding for the east and west EC extensions and relief line. And to decide on the round of things that need to be complete in 2030. This one is a done deal.

 

[kEiThZ]

All depends on if the Conservatives get elected. If they do, the Sheppard LRT is dead.

And this attempt to resurrect the LRT? Only going to give more ammunition to the Conservatives in Scarborough.

People like Forgotten love to complain about my support for John Tory. And I for one have no regrets. Because I see the problem. GO RER does jack all for commuters inside the 416. Smart Track at least shifted the discussion on suburban rail to include actual service for the 416. Now we just have to work on integration between TTC and GO. We need this. Or Toronto will never get over its subway expansion.

LRT advocates love to talk about LRT in all those beautiful cities. They seem to forget that those LRTs are only part of a network. The bones of those networks are solid suburban rail. Toronto is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[micheal_can]

All depends on if the Conservatives get elected. If they do, the Sheppard LRT is dead.

And this attempt to resurrect the LRT? Only going to give more ammunition to the Conservatives in Scarborough.

I could see all unfunded LRT in the province to be cancelled.
Ontario is broke. The PCs are not going to promise things with our current deficit. The Liberals and NDP might.

 

[TransitBart]

But he hasn't admitted he lost it.

AoD

Actually. I disagree with you all. The plan is not terrible except that Line 2 should go up to Sheppard, no 90 degree bend. Something else can continue eastward, northward on Sheppard.

As I read here, I wonder whether the principle or the cost is the issue.

Downtown, we buggered it up. we built Liberty Village with no transit, and we will do the same on Queen's Quay East in the short run. Big development. No transit. People everywhere. No way to get anywhere.

In Scarborough - **wrings hands** - God forbid anything be built. There just isn't the ridership potential. No people anywhere. No way to get anywhere if you do live there.

So pretend for the moment that cost is not an issue and then in Scarborough build the lines and let the infill begin. Nothing will be running before 2030 and I'd bet anyone here that the population can double in that time. In this case, the transit infrastructure precedes the development. This is normally the case. Roads and highways get built before other development. God forbid that should be the case in Scarborough for public transit seems to be the argument here.

Go back 15 years to 2000 and look at the pictures of South Core and Liberty Village. Look at the number of residents in one of the downtown wards that went from 4000 fifteen years ago to around 80,000 today. It is not inconceivable that Scarborough could experience the same path since the development potential in Etobicoke and downtown is less - at a certain cost - than it used to be.

When you build a highway, you can build it incrementally. You can build a certain length 2 lanes. Then you add another lane each direction. Then you add another. Etc. Your initial investment is reasonable and you can augment it over time.

It's not the case in rail. You don't normally build a streetcar in traffic. (modest cost). Then dig it up ten years later and build a ROW ten years later as traffic increases. Then ten years later dig that up and put in a heavy rail line. You choose a mode and it has to be good for all time. Unless you really do want a ton of disruption and more investment.

Everyone is having a conniption over the initial capital cost for a solution that ultimately likely makes sense.

This is not to say that cost per km ought not be studied carefully, and managed well, and that planner-ticians ought not be removed entirely from the process. But the proposal - for any number of reasons - is far from outlandish.

Toronto is supposed to be a city on a path of global giants like NYC, London, Paris...we all know the list. The rules are probably a little bit different for the global top 20 or 30. Why is everyone so happy with the rules that apply to Atlanta, Fresno, Manchester, and other interesting, but unspectacular middling cities?