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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

Highway 11 is not 411 and 115 is not 415.
Most of the 115 is built to 400-series standard. It's only the part that's co-signed with 35 that isn't.

Thats why I mentioned the at grade entrances to the highway on the 400. Those entrances are on parts of the highway that are less than 10 years old. Heck, MTO maintained the 406 designation to Welland for years despite it being a 2 lane at grade highway posted at 80km/h.


This is on a 400 series highway that was constructed to modern standards otherwise. MTO will make exceptions when designating 400 series highways, they aren't super strict about it like Interstates in the US.

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At least you can't turn left. There are quite a few spots out west on their limited access highways that permit left turns across traffic, mostly into campgrounds and rest stops.
 
It's only "unnecessary fetishism" if you needlessly complicate it (and use situations that wouldn't even exist to help illustrate your point).
Given that 7 exists to the east and west, and 8 exists to the north and south, then putting 400-series numbers for some short sections that are dual carriageways is entirely unnecessary. I'm not sure why you'd not think that 7 and 8 wouldn't be cosigned.
 
Western Canada's freeways aren't anywhere close to limited access, and they don't really pretend to be. They have dual carriageways, but generally no interchanges outside of the big cities.

115 also isn't 400 series standards. Its a limited access freeway, but it lacks paved shoulders which are needed for 400 series roads.
 
Given that 7 exists to the east and west, and 8 exists to the north and south, then putting 400-series numbers for some short sections that are dual carriageways is entirely unnecessary. I'm not sure why you'd not think that 7 and 8 wouldn't be cosigned.

I answered that. Personally, I don't think a Provincial Highway 7 west of Guelph makes much sense. From Guelph to Baden the Highway 7 corridor would be exclusively controlled access, and from Kitchener to London via 7 is a superfluous route IMO, since 8-401 already services that. I'd have it be a municipal highway from Stratford to London, and be erased entirely from Stratford to Guelph. That would remove the need for the dual 7/8 signage, leaving 8 as the only "undersigned" Provincial highway on 477.
 
Won't work - that would leave Middlesex County to maintain a former provincial highway that passes through no Middlesex County. Doesn't work
 
Won't work - that would leave Middlesex County to maintain a former provincial highway that passes through no Middlesex County. Doesn't work

Don't see how that's any different from the many municipalities that had to assume portions of former Provincial highways (pretty much all of Highway 2, Highway 17 east of the 417, including the expressway portion in Ottawa, Highway 7 through Peel and York, etc).

In general, I don't really see the need for the Province to maintain ownership of a highway when the principal intercity trip pattern that it was serving has been bypassed by a 400-series highway (or combination of highways). Highway 7 was at one point the preferred route between Kitchener and London. It isn't anymore.
 
Don't see how that's any different from the many municipalities that had to assume portions of former Provincial highways (pretty much all of Highway 2, Highway 17 east of the 417, including the expressway portion in Ottawa, Highway 7 through Peel and York, etc).
I'm not aware of which former provincial highway in Ottawa doesn't go through a municipality. And I've driven former Highway 7. Those aren't farm fields I see at Yonge.

Though surely 7 in York Region and 16 and 17 in/near Ottawa aren't even comparable, having their former prime function replaced by expressways.
 
Western Canada's freeways aren't anywhere close to limited access, and they don't really pretend to be. They have dual carriageways, but generally no interchanges outside of the big cities.

115 also isn't 400 series standards. Its a limited access freeway, but it lacks paved shoulders which are needed for 400 series roads.
That's why I referred to them as limited access - I'm talking about the freeway portions only, not the much more extensive at grade expressways. Like Highway 1 west of Calgary and through Banff National Park.

Lots of 400 series highways lack paved shoulders, especially from the same era. The 416 for example.
 
I'm not aware of which former provincial highway in Ottawa doesn't go through a municipality. And I've driven former Highway 7. Those aren't farm fields I see at Yonge.

Though surely 7 in York Region and 16 and 17 in/near Ottawa aren't even comparable, having their former prime function replaced by expressways.

Highway 7 has already been downloaded west of Highway 4 (from Sarnia). Why is 7 between Highway 4 and Highway 8 really that different?

And I'm saying they are somewhat comparable, because the original Kitchener to London trip pattern that Highway 7 served has been almost completely replaced by Highway 8-Highway 401.

Also, not sure what you meant by your original "doesn't go through a municipality" point. That seems to only further the argument that it should be downloaded. At least highways like Highway 15 go directly through places like Carleton Place, Smiths Falls, and Kingston. Highway 7 only really goes through Stratford.
 
Highway 7 has already been downloaded west of Highway 4 (from Sarnia). Why is 7 between Highway 4 and Highway 8 really that different?
I assume you mean east of Sarnia.

Highway 7 east of Sarnia is about 600 metres from the parallel Highway 402. There'd be no long-distance traffic on former Highway 7 here. Highway 7 between Highway 8 (Stratford) and Highway 4 (Lucan) carries all sorts of long-distance traffic, including from KW to London, KW to Sarnia, KW to Grand Bend, etc.

And I'm saying they are somewhat comparable, because the original Kitchener to London trip pattern that Highway 7 served has been almost completely replaced by Highway 8-Highway 401.
No, not at all. It's no where near Highway 401. I've driven 7 coming west out of Kitchener to Lucan. I've never driven the former 7 now Regional Road 22.

Also, not sure what you meant by your original "doesn't go through a municipality" point. That seems to only further the argument that it should be downloaded. At least highways like Highway 15 go directly through places like Carleton Place, Smiths Falls, and Kingston. Highway 7 only really goes through Stratford.
Precisely (though how you get to St. Mary's without travelling Highway 7 is beyond me). - it's providing regional travel, rather than local travel. Highway 16 in Ottawa provides local travel
 
There are other things from what I remember about 115.. I think lanes are 3.5m instead of 3.75m wide, merge lanes aren't long enough, etc.
 
I assume you mean east of Sarnia.

Highway 7 east of Sarnia is about 600 metres from the parallel Highway 402. There'd be no long-distance traffic on former Highway 7 here. Highway 7 between Highway 8 (Stratford) and Highway 4 (Lucan) carries all sorts of long-distance traffic, including from KW to London, KW to Sarnia, KW to Grand Bend, etc.

Sorry, I meant west of Highway 4, towards Sarnia.

No, not at all. It's no where near Highway 401. I've driven 7 coming west out of Kitchener to Lucan. I've never driven the former 7 now Regional Road 22.

I really doubt that it's faster to take 7 to London than it is to take 8+401. Just going by Google, 8+401 is 1h13m, while via 7 it's 1h35m. ~1/3rd longer is a pretty substantial difference.

Precisely (though how you get to St. Mary's without travelling Highway 7 is beyond me). - it's providing regional travel, rather than local travel. Highway 16 in Ottawa provides local travel

I said 15, not 16.

My point is just that there aren't very many substantial trip patterns that Highway 7 west of Kitchener serves right now. It used to, but it doesn't anymore. It goes through Stratford, and it goes around St. Mary's. Even for going to places like Grand Bend or Sarnia, alternative routes are faster.

I just don't think the section west of Kitchener really needs to be a Provincial highway. If the section within Kitchener is re-signed as a 400-series highway, it would be cut back to Guelph. Maintaining that section is valid, because there really isn't a faster route between Guelph and northern Brampton right now.
 
I really doubt that it's faster to take 7 to London than it is to take 8+401. Just going by Google, 8+401 is 1h13m, while via 7 it's 1h35m. ~1/3rd longer is a pretty substantial difference.
Depends where you start from/end. When I talked to people in Waterloo who did regularly drive back/forth to Western, none took 401. Some took 7 and took the short-cut through Punkydoodles Corners - both seem faster than going down to 401 - and that's before even starting to consider the congestion on 7, 85, and 7/8 in Kitchener and Waterloo.

http://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.47...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en


I said 15, not 16.
I've never known Highway 15 to enter Ottawa, it always terminated at Highway 7 in Carlton Place when I used to drive it; I've heard it was cosigned once upon a time, but that was with Highway 7, and it's not been downloaded.

As far as I know, the only piece of 15 to be downloaded is south of the 401 - which I guess would have happened in two stages, as they did build the Barriefield bypass - in the 1970s if I recall.

As such, I really don't know what you are referring to here.

My point is just that there aren't very many substantial trip patterns that Highway 7 west of Kitchener serves right now. It used to, but it doesn't anymore. It goes through Stratford, and it goes around St. Mary's. Even for going to places like Grand Bend or Sarnia, alternative routes are faster.
But as pointed out above, alternative routes aren't faster. And I'm sure you've driven Highway 7 from Kitchener to New Hamburg - it's very busy, why would you download it. And also from New Hamburg to Stratford - the province has been talking about 4-laning this for years it's so busy.

I just don't think the section west of Kitchener really needs to be a Provincial highway. If the section within Kitchener is re-signed as a 400-series highway, it would be cut back to Guelph. Maintaining that section is valid, because there really isn't a faster route between Guelph and northern Brampton right now.
If it's going to be that short, might as well just use existing numbers. If one must renumber, I'd think you'd number 6 from the 403 to 85 as one number, and the Conestoga from Wilmot to Woolwich township border as a second number - but seems totally unnecessary in my mind (other than simplifying the current mess).
 
Depends where you start from/end. When I talked to people in Waterloo who did regularly drive back/forth to Western, none took 401. Some took 7 and took the short-cut through Punkydoodles Corners - both seem faster than going down to 401 - and that's before even starting to consider the congestion on 7, 85, and 7/8 in Kitchener and Waterloo.

http://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.47...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en
That route doesn't really use Highway 7 at all to get to London, aside from a bit of the co-signed section with Highway 8, which would still remain a Provincial highway under my proposal. West of New Hamburg, it uses almost exclusively County roads, aside from the last bit using Highway 4.

So not really sure what point you're trying to make here, other than helping make my case that Highway 7 west of Stratford is redundant as a Provincial highway.

I've never known Highway 15 to enter Ottawa, it always terminated at Highway 7 in Carlton Place when I used to drive it; I've heard it was cosigned once upon a time, but that was with Highway 7, and it's not been downloaded.

Highway 15 used to connect all the way to Highway 17, until the travel patterns changed and 7 became busier (this was a long time ago, so I have no personal knowledge of this, only records). At first it was co-signed, as you mention, with 7 from Carleton Place to Ottawa (or more appropriately West Carleton, at the time), and then was cut back to Carleton Place. Most nortbound traffic on Highway 15 entering Carleton Place turns right and continues along 7 towards the 417 though. So while not still officially co-signed, it still very much functions as such.

As far as I know, the only piece of 15 to be downloaded is south of the 401 - which I guess would have happened in two stages, as they did build the Barriefield bypass - in the 1970s if I recall.

As such, I really don't know what you are referring to here.

What I was referring to was trying to draw a comparison between Highway 15 between Ottawa and Kingston (assuming the small stretch of Highway 7 into that route) and taking 416 + 401. There are similarities between this and Highway 7 vs 8+401 from Kitchener to London, but I was trying to highlight the fact that 15 passes through more towns along the way.

But as pointed out above, alternative routes aren't faster. And I'm sure you've driven Highway 7 from Kitchener to New Hamburg - it's very busy, why would you download it. And also from New Hamburg to Stratford - the province has been talking about 4-laning this for years it's so busy.

But that section is also signed as Highway 8. The branching only occurs in Stratford, so under my proposal that section would still be a provincial highway, and would become part of 477 when it was 4-laned. In my mind, Highway 8 still serves much more of an important intercity travel role. The section from Cambridge to Hamilton really has no 400-series bypass yet, and neither does the section from Stratford to Goderich (and won't for a very long time).

It's really only the section of Highway 7 from Stratford to Highway 4 that I'm talking about downloading here. West of 4, it already has been downloaded, and east of Stratford, it's concurrent with Highway 8, which would remain a Provincial highway.

If it's going to be that short, might as well just use existing numbers. If one must renumber, I'd think you'd number 6 from the 403 to 85 as one number, and the Conestoga from Wilmot to Woolwich township border as a second number - but seems totally unnecessary in my mind (other than simplifying the current mess).

Not really sure what you're referencing here, and where Highway 6 came into this. The section I'm talking about is from Kitchener westward.
 
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