Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[nfitz]

Given that there are 4 lanes of traffic that go past the King/Highway 8 interchange, and only 2 lanes that change highways, then presumably there are more people staying on the Conestoga than leaving to 8.

And that's what I observe when I drive it.

What do you observe, when you drive it?

 

[BurlOak]

100% disagree.

It gives the Hanlon/7 from 401 to Conestoga 2 different numbers, when it will be a single roadway; with the the number changing half-way.

I thought there would be a short extension of the Hanlon Expressway north (about 2km) to connect with highway 6 near Marden - but this link does not show it. Maybe my memory was wrong. It is still the intersection of a north-south highway with an east-west highway (much like the Gardiner and DVP or 427 and QEW) and having separate numbers still makes sense.

It reserves 485 for some unplanned southern extenison.

It gives the lone north-south freeway through the area a single number. As the freeway is expanded north (if ever), it would assume this number.

It has 3 different numbers for the Conestoga - just like now (477, 477/485 and 485). Actually 4, because the very northern piece is Regional Road 85.

Yes, I kind of ignore history and based the number on something that makes sense to an outsider. Regional Road 85 would be like the end of highway 427 now (RR #99). Technically a RR , but most consider it part of the freeway. Maybe the province could upload a small portion?

 

[BurlOak]

Given that there are 4 lanes of traffic that go past the King/Highway 8 interchange, and only 2 lanes that change highways, then presumably there are more people staying on the Conestoga than leaving to 8.

And that's what I observe when I drive it.

What do you observe, when you drive it?

So you are saying that they stay on highway 477. Since we don't know how many started north of the highway 7 split, it is hard to say if they stayed on the whole Conestoga or only the 477 part.

 

[gweed123]

Given that there are 4 lanes of traffic that go past the King/Highway 8 interchange, and only 2 lanes that change highways, then presumably there are more people staying on the Conestoga than leaving to 8.

And that's what I observe when I drive it.

What do you observe, when you drive it?

But look at either side of the interchange. By the time it reaches Courtland it's 2 thru lanes in each direction, and by the time it passes Wellington it's 2 thru lanes in each direction. It narrows down on either side of where the two traffic patterns 'overlap', between where 8 splits off and where 7 does. From 8 to 7 is by far the widest part of the highway.

I drive it mostly in off-peak times, but my experience has been exactly that a significant volume gets on or off at 8 and on or off at 7. I can't recall a time where I've ever gotten on west of Homer Watson and gotten off north of Wellington, or vice versa.

 

[nfitz]

I thought there would be a short extension of the Hanlon Expressway north (about 2km) to connect with highway 6 near Marden - but this link does not show it. Maybe my memory was wrong. It is still the intersection of a north-south highway with an east-west highway (much like the Gardiner and DVP or 427 and QEW) and having separate numbers still makes sense.

It's no different than the curve on 403 near Eglinton/Cawthra, or the curve on 407 near Trafalgar/401.

It gives the lone north-south freeway through the area a single number. As the freeway is expanded north (if ever), it would assume this number.

It's not one highway though - it's two. The main lanes on 8 simply turn into King Street - not the Conestoga.

And it already extends north; but as a Regional road rather than Provincial.

Technically a RR , but most consider it part of the freeway. Maybe the province could upload a small portion?

Why, when it already downloaded 86.

 

[gweed123]

It's no different than the curve on 403 near Eglinton/Cawthra, or the curve on 407 near Trafalgar/401.

Good comparison. Although it's worth noting that that curve was initially designed to be part of the 403-410 interchange, since the 403 was supposed to go straight through and the 410 was supposed to extend further south. The 90 degree turn is primarily a result of those other 2 projects never being built.

It's not one highway though - it's two. The main lanes on 8 simply turn into King Street - not the Conestoga.

You could just as easily say that King is a left hand exit. There are plenty of examples where the "thru" movement exits off to the right. The 420-QEW in Niagara Falls (QEW thru is a right exit basically), the 403-407-QEW interchange heading eastbound on the 403, where half the lanes exit to the left for the 407. The Gardiner-DVP is the opposite, where coming from the Gardiner in order to stay on an expressway you need to exit left, and then straight movement brings you to street level.

I think it was just designed that way because it was easier to configure the ramps.

 

[nfitz]

Good comparison. Although it's worth noting that that curve was initially designed to be part of the 403-410 interchange, since the 403 was supposed to go straight through and the 410 was supposed to extend further south. The 90 degree turn is primarily a result of those other 2 projects never being built.

True.

Though the 407 was always going to do that 90° at 401 (though terminate at QEW, as the last bit of 403 there was supposed to be 407, and 403 would have gone to the current 407/403/QEW interchange in Burlington.

There was a later plan after 407 became a private brand, rather than just a highway, that 403 in Mississauga would simply have become 410 from Bramtpon all the way to QEW near Ford Drive - which for some reason got kaboshed after they announced it, and we ended up with the 403-along-the-QEW thing.

403 and 410 having separate numbers made a lot of sense when there was no 403 to 410 connection. Seems unnecessary now that they've connected them.

 

[jamincan]

I think the physical configuration of the roadway is much less important than travel patterns when it comes to numbering and that interregional travel patterns are more important than local travel patterns as it is more likely that people from outside of the local area will be relying on signage to find their way.

In my judgement, most traffic by far on local expressways is following the 85<->7<->8 routing from Waterloo to the 401 and vice versa. The next most important routing would be 7<->85, and then finally 7<->8. It is absurd that the most important route into the city, the route that visitors will take if they are coming in to visit any of the major local employers or destinations (universities, St. Jacob's market, Perimeter Institute, Blackberry, etc.), requires using three different highway numbers. For that reason, I think it makes sense to number the Freeport Bypass and the part of the Conestoga Pkwy heading north from there a single number. Most visitors to the region use this path, as well as most commuters within the region.

Highway 7 is an important EW provincial route, and for that reason, I think that numbering should be preserved along that routing. I think the Highway 8 is actually less important, and should end in Stratford where it meets 7. This would eliminate Hwy 8 in KW and simplifying numbering on the highways there so that there is only one number except between the Freeport Bypass and Victoria St. (/the future Hwy 7 bypass) where there would be two highway numbers cosigned.

The actual physical configuration of the highways is more an accident of history than anything. Kitchener started work on the Conestoga Parkway before the route of the 401 was determined through the region. They had initially hoped the 401 would follow the E-W portion of the Pkwy through the city, but Cambridge fought to have it pass through there instead. The present alignment of the 401 is a compromise between the two that significantly alters the traffic patterns away from what the Conestoga Pkwy was initially designed to address.

 

[Duke-of-East-York]

True, but one of the things that came out in the inquest, is that the curves weren't built for the same design speed that you'd use for a 400-series highway - the high walls were only a factor.

It's a local municipal highway - if Gardiner and DVP were downloaded, I'm not sure why only the very north end of the Conestoga was downloaded.

Was there really a full inquest? I'm pretty up to speed on my Ontario highway history, but this is the first I've heard of that. I'd be interested in more information if you happen to have it.

There are arguably several 400 series highways that could be labelled as "local municipal highways" - the 406, 420, 409, and each of these examples are constructed to nearly identical standards to the Conestoga Parkway and Highway 8.

 

[nfitz]

Was there really a full inquest? I'm pretty up to speed on my Ontario highway history, but this is the first I've heard of that. I'd be interested in more information if you happen to have it.

That's my recollection, but after 20 years ...

Without digging through the Kitchener Records archives hard to be sure. Through "conestoga parkway" "inquest" "cross-over/crossover" from the 1990s should yield something. Take out inquest and replace with killed, and delete cross-over if nothing comes up.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Gardiner and DVP were never provincial highways. They downloaded a bit of the QEW to Toronto from the 427 to the Humber River, which Toronto renamed as the Gardiner. The elevated Gardiner and the DVP have always been municipally maintained highways.

 

[gweed123]

I think the physical configuration of the roadway is much less important than travel patterns when it comes to numbering and that interregional travel patterns are more important than local travel patterns as it is more likely that people from outside of the local area will be relying on signage to find their way.

In my judgement, most traffic by far on local expressways is following the 85<->7<->8 routing from Waterloo to the 401 and vice versa. The next most important routing would be 7<->85, and then finally 7<->8. It is absurd that the most important route into the city, the route that visitors will take if they are coming in to visit any of the major local employers or destinations (universities, St. Jacob's market, Perimeter Institute, Blackberry, etc.), requires using three different highway numbers. For that reason, I think it makes sense to number the Freeport Bypass and the part of the Conestoga Pkwy heading north from there a single number. Most visitors to the region use this path, as well as most commuters within the region.

Highway 7 is an important EW provincial route, and for that reason, I think that numbering should be preserved along that routing. I think the Highway 8 is actually less important, and should end in Stratford where it meets 7. This would eliminate Hwy 8 in KW and simplifying numbering on the highways there so that there is only one number except between the Freeport Bypass and Victoria St. (/the future Hwy 7 bypass) where there would be two highway numbers cosigned.

The actual physical configuration of the highways is more an accident of history than anything. Kitchener started work on the Conestoga Parkway before the route of the 401 was determined through the region. They had initially hoped the 401 would follow the E-W portion of the Pkwy through the city, but Cambridge fought to have it pass through there instead. The present alignment of the 401 is a compromise between the two that significantly alters the traffic patterns away from what the Conestoga Pkwy was initially designed to address.

Good analysis. The travel patterns that you mention are pretty similar to the ones I was describing earlier.

And I didn't know that the Conestoga was originally planned to be part of the 401. I can see why Cambridge would have been upset with that alignment though. The current 401 alignment is really kind of in a no-man's land, a path of least resistance between KW and Cambridge.

 

[ShonTron]

The actual physical configuration of the highways is more an accident of history than anything. Kitchener started work on the Conestoga Parkway before the route of the 401 was determined through the region. They had initially hoped the 401 would follow the E-W portion of the Pkwy through the city, but Cambridge fought to have it pass through there instead. The present alignment of the 401 is a compromise between the two that significantly alters the traffic patterns away from what the Conestoga Pkwy was initially designed to address.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kitchener hoped that Highway 401 would have passed closer to town. After all, it would have came closer to Guelph if it followed the path along the Highway 7/8 alignment as well. But Cambridge wasn't a thing until January 1973, two decades after Highway 401 was planned, and 15 years after work started on this section.

 

[nfitz]

In my judgement, most traffic by far on local expressways is following the 85<->7<->8 routing from Waterloo to the 401 and vice versa. The next most important routing would be 7<->85, and then finally 7<->8. It is absurd that the most important route into the city, the route that visitors will take if they are coming in to visit any of the major local employers or destinations (universities, St. Jacob's market, Perimeter Institute, Blackberry, etc.), requires using three different highway numbers.

I disagree. Majority of the traffic on the Conestoga in rush-hour is local - it hasn't come from the 401 or further south. I'd think that shows up in the traffic count data from MTO.

The actual physical configuration of the highways is more an accident of history than anything. Kitchener started work on the Conestoga Parkway before the route of the 401 was determined through the region. They had initially hoped the 401 would follow the E-W portion of the Pkwy through the city, but Cambridge fought to have it pass through there instead. The present alignment of the 401 is a compromise between the two that significantly alters the traffic patterns away from what the Conestoga Pkwy was initially designed to address.

In my two decades or so in Kitchener, I never heard that. Couldn't have been Cambridge - would have either have been the Waterloo County, Waterloo Township, or the old towns.

Do you have a reference for that? 401 was built a long time before the Conestoga - though I'm sure there was a lot of drawing lines on maps before that.

 

[jamincan]

It was from the book that was recently published regarding the construction of the parkway and Freeport bypass. It was actually Galt that wanted a southern alignment. I can give a proper reference when I get home.

Regardless of commuting patterns (I should see if a traffic study had been done), the 8-7-85 route is the most important gateway to the city for visitors. Surely that is indisputable.