Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[gweed123]

Good point. I thought of this option, too. Not in the sense that I firmly support it (I think it is easier to build the subway at this point); but rather in the sense that potentially, it is technically feasible and has a number of benefits.

Basically, you would implement new "SRT" using mainline, or mainline-compatible, equipment (rather than LRT or ICTS). That would allow to operate both the frequent rail service between Malvern, STC, and Kennedy, and the less frequent but still valuable direct service to Union.

Yup, that's pretty much it. The current SRT trip pattern would be served by the 'shuttle' route, while the 'to downtown' trip pattern would be served by the Union-bound route. Because you'd have a 4 track section, you could have a lot of flexibility with how frequently the shuttle ran, in order to better handle demand. Even if there's a direct-to-downtown option, Kennedy would still be a pretty major transfer point.

The only concern on the technical side is the need to fit mainline trains in the Midland curve and then in the guideline / Progress corridor; but I would think that it is doable if the right type of rolling stock is selected.

The curve would certainly need to be rebuilt, but then again, so would the entire guideway. Not having to fit with existing infrastructure loosens the requirements a little bit I think. Also, you can start increasing grades within the Stouffville corridor (since it's 4 tracked), which is difficult to do now with the SRT.

A much bigger concern is not technical but rather administrative. The City Council knows about 2 options; subway ir light rail. Trying to subscribe them for the 3-rd option (mainline) would be a tall order; some of them are pretty thick to be honest. Plus, the inevitable delays that will add months and years to the completion date.

That's why the subway remains my preference; but, as already said, I can't deny that your proposal makes sense.

City Council has been pretty supportive of SmartTrack so far, and Tory has a huge amount of capital invested in it. If the City can release "SmartTrack 2.0", which includes the Scarborough Spur, I think it would win a lot of votes, especially if it can be accomplished within the existing budget. Many of the pro-LRT councillors were for the LRT because it fit within the established budget, and many of the pro-subway councillors just didn't want LRT, and didn't want a forced transfer at Kennedy. Proposing a 3rd option which is basically a surface subway (I hate that term, but politically it plays well) that fits within the existing budget allows both sides to change their vote but not appear like they're backtracking.

 

[Rainforest]

As for Ford, he may not have been directly involved initially, but his years of anti-LRT propaganda has influenced public opinion to the point that politicians saw an opportunity to take advantage of it, and that's what they did.

This is a very common misconcept. There was no such thing as Ford's anti-LRT "propaganda", as in systematic efforts to promote his views and prove their merits. He just does not have the verbal acumen to spread any kind of propaganda; nor did he have a PR team that possesses such abilities. He had a few simple slogans, basically that's all.

On the contrary, TTC attempted massive pro-LRT propaganda in the period of 2007 - 2009, when Transit City was their showcase project. They did everything that's due: presentations, ridership forecasts, public meetings, even posters and buttons.

The result? The majority of public did not buy into LRT. Ford's anti-tax position was the primary cause of his victory in 2010 (he probably would not win on "subways-subways" alone), but it must be noted that LRT did not help candidates who opposed Ford.

My interpretation: today's transit advocates often fail to understand how the actual riders use transit and what they want from it. The said transit advocates place too much emphasis on "city-building" vs improving commute for the existing transit riders. In return, the riders/voters do not see why they should get excited about transit to future condo towers, whose future dwellers may not even have moved into the city yet.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm starting to think a far better idea would be something like this:

1) Two stop Bloor-Danforth extension, Danforth and Eglinton and terminus at Eglinton GO.
2) At-grade Danforth-McCowan LRT. From Danforth/Eglinton up McCowan. They could take it all the way up to Milliken if they want. This would allow for replacement of McCowan North, one of the busiest bus routes at SC.
3) Keep Eglinton LRT on Eglinton and then continue on Kingston and up through Morningside as per the SMLRT plan. They can short-turn some trains if they don't need the frequency.
4) Serve Malvern with a spur of Sheppard, up Neilson Road or up the Progress hydro corridor.

Or heck, skip the subway extension and accelerate the SMLRT branch.....

Danforth-McCowan LRT is a great idea I never heard of before.

I would have it routed to reach Kennedy Station on Eglinton instead of building a subway.

 

[ssiguy2]

Why don't they just upgrade the tracks, buy MK111 cars and save $3 billion?

 

[drum118]

Why don't they just upgrade the tracks, buy MK111 cars and save $3 billion?

Hello Ellesmere Tunnel.

More than that

 

[BurlOak]

That's for Eglinton, not for SRT. A dramatic shift of SRT riders from BD subway to Eglinton would occur if SRT and Eglinton were interlined.

I am going by memory, but I recall 12k am ridership WB approaching Kennedy. About 6k transfer to BO and then it built up again to 12k at Yonge.

Yonge transfer may be a problem, but if the DRL was built, that would be the main transfer point.

Essentially, a connected Eglinton works well with DRL. With the Transit City plan, people were saying that they don't want or need a DRL.

 

[BurlOak]

That's all reasonable, except ... do the residents of Scarborough actually think that their local bus service is not working well, and desperately needs improvements?

This is important. That fact that most travel in Scarborough is local is misleading.
Anyone who hops on a bus for a few km is happy enough with buses. The bus likely stops closer to their origin and destination (plus likely has a higher frequency) and the marginal time savings from LRT speed does not exceed the extra walking time and inconvenience.

It it the distance traveler that needs better transit. They want bus to fast transit, and may a final transfer near destination.

This could be bus to,

1) SRT/ECLRT and then final transfer at BD, DRL, Yonge, Spadina, depending on whether destination it downtown, uptown, midtown, York U, etc.

2) SmartTrack and spur, which would allow transfer at Kennedy or Union.[/QUOTE]

 

[BurlOak]

Hello Ellesmere Tunnel.

More than that

$100m is too much for a tunnel. Let's spend billions on a subway instead.

 

[BurlOak]

This is a very common misconcept. There was no such thing as Ford's anti-LRT "propaganda", as in systematic efforts to promote his views and prove their merits. He just does not have the verbal acumen to spread any kind of propaganda; nor did he have a PR team that possesses such abilities. He had a few simple slogans, basically that's all.
.

Strange that someone with Fords limited abilities was the only politician who spoke up about the problems that have been discussed these past few pages (actually for years). Too bad he was not smart enough to articulate a solution.

 

[coffey1]

$100m is too much for a tunnel. Let's spend billions on a subway instead.

Its a similar issue with Sheppard. Instead of spending the money required not only make a seamless, effective LRT line. We will end up debating billions more for a subway.

Not to mention on the millions of waste in between cancellations of crap plans, advertising, new consultation contracts etc...

 

[BurlOak]

Danforth-McCowan LRT is a great idea I never heard of before.

I would have it routed to reach Kennedy Station on Eglinton instead of building a subway.

If on street LRT is chosen, it must have branches with the underground portion common. Thus, one branch up McCowan and one along Eglinton/Kinston, with the Kennedy to McCowan part of common and underground.

Same thing needed to happen near Brencliffe. Somehow a branch of ECLRT could have gone up Leslie and across Lawrence, or up Don Mills or along hydro corridor to STC, too bad the line surfaced too soon

 

[nfitz]

Why don't they just upgrade the tracks, buy MK111 cars and save $3 billion?

Hello Ellesmere Tunnel.

The 2006 estimate to upgrade the track, extend all the stations, and modify the tunnel to handle MK111 cars was only $190 million (with another $170 million for new rolling stock).

Obviously there's some inflation to be factored in ... but the Ellesmere tunnel isn't a big issue compared to building a $4 billion subway extension.

 

[Rainforest]

The 2006 estimate to upgrade the track, extend all the stations, and modify the tunnel to handle MK111 cars was only $190 million (with another $170 million for new rolling stock).

Obviously there's some inflation to be factored in ... but the Ellesmere tunnel isn't a big issue compared to building a $4 billion subway extension.

Yes, but this is only for the rebuilding SRT to McCowan. Not an apple-to-apple comparison.

If we want to extend the line to Sheppard / Progress, or to Malvern, then the cost of ICTS or LRT will be about same.

 

[nfitz]

Yes, but this is only for the rebuilding SRT to McCowan. Not an apple-to-apple comparison.

That makes no sense. You are saying the Ellesmere tunnel is the reason we can rehab the SRT if we only wanted to serve McCowan, but we need a nearly $4 billion solution to get to Sheppard?

 

[Rainforest]

That makes no sense. You are saying the Ellesmere tunnel is the reason we can rehab the SRT if we only wanted to serve McCowan, but we need a nearly $4 billion solution to get to Sheppard?

Of course that makes no sense, because that is not what I said.

I said that the refurbished ICTS solution is no cheaper than LRT, unless you want to drop the connection to Sheppard and only refurbish the existing line to McCowan Stn.

Both the ICTS and the LRT solutons are cheaper than subway.