Hamilton Hamilton Line B LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

CDL.TO said:
I always thought that running it down Cootes Dr could offer an easy, quick straight-shot into downtown Dundas where the LRT could either terminate at York St on the edge of downtown or run in mixed traffic down King St through downtown Dundas.
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Good idea, Cootes is plenty-wide (Canada's First lane-separated, or 'dual carriage', highway).

It would also connect Mac's auxiliary lots to the Main Campus/Health Centre.
 
DC83 said:
Considering Ted McMeekin was a key player in landing this, and his riding includes Dundas, I'm not sure why I didn't include it LOL
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That's actually an interesting point, Im surprised the Libs didn't do this. One reason they didnt was probably because they are confident they dont have to do any Sorbara-style vote buying this time around with this riding.

Asides from that, there is really no need to extend the LRT into Dundas. The ridership certainly would not be there, population density is not there, and there would be no logical reason to use Cootes Drive for this purpose (unless people really want a white elephant segment of the route).
 
So over here in Kitchener-Waterloo, there's all the jealousy over Hamilton getting 100% funding, while we had to pay for our LRT. (I was actually interviewed for that segment, but they didn't use my interview!)

I was doing some musing on Twitter about Hamilton's deal, and how it compares to Kitchener:

Hamilton's initial B-Line proposal was a 13.4km route from McMaster to Eastgate Square.
The funded proposal is 10.2km from McMaster to Queenston Circle, plus a 1.2km spur to West Harbour (James North) GO transit station. That's 11.4km, instead of 13.4km of LRT, as per the original plan.

Hamilton got 100% funding, but they got 100% funding for 85% of their LRT plan.

To finish the LRT to Eastgate, it requires 3km more track, which if it gets built, means a system of 14.4km.
11.4km is currently paid for out of that 14.4km. That's only 79% of a complete LRT line, including the spur, and extending to Eastgate.
Waterloo Region meanwhile, got funding for 69% of phase 1, which is of comparable size.
By ponying up local money, Waterloo got 100% of Phase 1, unlike Hamilton, which is getting 79% of their LRT.

Perhaps if Hamilton were to put up the remaining 21% of the cost, they could finish their LRT in one go?
 
mdrejhon said:
30,000+ people per day is not shabby for an LRT. Remember that Hamilton's peak behavior is somewhat different from a lot of cities. The McMaster students and the shiftwork at many Hamilton industries, really spreads peak surges here in Hamilton. We don't get as contrastingly sharp peak periods like Toronto does. Sometimes midday is almost as busy as peak!

Although the capital costs are stupendous (especially with Ontario debt), moving 30,000 people per day by LRT is operationally cheaper than moving 30,000 people per day by BRT. There are pros and cons of LRT and BRT, but for Hamilton, the LRT makes a lot of sense from a citybuilding uplift perspective, given the depressed state of lots of Lower City, combined with really good LRT-justifying traffic on the B-Line that would go up even more.

It is wholly possible that the projection of 30,000 per day is a gross underestimate, as many LRTs have exceeded the most optimistic estimates. But maybe not. Still, 30,000 people per day on one route is quite not shabby. Bus connectors will probably help amplify this, reducing the number of kilometers buses need to transport passengers at higher cost, and transporting people at lower LRT cost. (In 2001, Calgary C-Train cost only $0.27 per passenger to operate, versus $1.50 per bus passenger -- and that is including 2001 electric versus diesel prices; today the differential is bigger). Today, Hamilton's HSR average operating cost is about $5 per bus passenger. Done well, the LRT could slash operating cost per passenger quite a bit. The capital cost is the painful part, though.

Also, I need to point out that $1bn includes two LRT lines (A-line stub), so it's likely a $750bn allocation to the B-Line

But that said... about the need for BRTs... You are right, we also need BRTs, or at least more good fast frequent buses, too. Hopefully a bus expansion announcement is coming too.
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The only reason I'd support this is because of the lower operational costs. Is the LRT expected the be cheaper than the BRT over its lifecycle?

I'm not sure how the number of people moved per day is relevant. We measure transit demand based on how many people are using the line at peak point, direction and hour. Depending on travel patterns, 30k per day could warrant regular bus service, or even subway rapid transit (the latter would be very unusual, however).
 
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The other factor is enhancing revitalization. Main/King are obsolete urban expressways with lots of shuttered stores (4-to-5 lane wide one way streets, one to two blocks apart, with beautifully synchronized traffic lights). Cars often dont pull over for the businesses because they are busy focussing on keeping up with the synchronized traffic light sequence.

A good LRT plan (for King) would force Main into a 2-way street, calmig traffic, making businesses more viable, allowing a massive revitalization.

If you seen the shuttered storefronts (various sections of King between Sherman and Ottawa)
Did you see how the shuttered storefronts completely disappeared from James Street when it was converted to a 2-way street?
A similiar thing would happen eventually (over a decade or two) with Main and King when both ran 2-way.

Unfortunately, the city changed their mind about converting Main Street into a 2-way street back in 2011. This has kind of been a sacred cow. But this needs to be reopened as it goes hand-in-hand with LRT.
 
CDL.TO said:
I always thought that running it down Cootes Dr could offer an easy, quick straight-shot into downtown Dundas where the LRT could either terminate at York St on the edge of downtown or run in mixed traffic down King St through downtown Dundas.

That's a good 3 kilometres of protected parkland along Cootes before you get to Dundas, and frankly, there isn't much there. Continuing west along Main Street hits thousands of residents, a high density neighbourhood, and most significant local shopping destinations people actually want to go to.
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Judging from Google Maps, Dundas seems like a good place for the LRT to extend to. Reasonable density around the core, an actual downtown strip with shopping.

It would benefit greatly from LRT connection with the rest of Hamilton.
 
WislaHD said:
Judging from Google Maps, Dundas seems like a good place for the LRT to extend to. Reasonable density around the core, an actual downtown strip with shopping.

It would benefit greatly from LRT connection with the rest of Hamilton.
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D

You could still protect for a future extension to Dundas by taking the LRT further west along Main to Osler. The LRT could, in the future, head northwest up Osler Dr to Main Street Dundas and turn left onto King Street.
 
Jonny5 said:
That's a good 3 kilometres of protected parkland along Cootes before you get to Dundas, and frankly, there isn't much there. Continuing west along Main Street hits thousands of residents, a high density neighbourhood, and most significant local shopping destinations people actually want to go to.
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I know there's nothing there but squirrels, but I'm concerned that following Osler will be very difficult. It's actually quite tight in places.

If your goal is to serve downtown Dundas, Cootes could get it done quickly and cheaply but at the expense of missing intermediate destinations. Yes, it would be 2 km with no intermediate stops, but that would certainly make it fast.
 
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A map of the approved route, with the Centennial GO station as the green marker.

HAsNTyP.png

Source: Raise The Hammer
 

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It'd be nice to see Hamilton toss in some money to extend the James St line to the waterfront. And, if James is going to be operated as an independent line, to St. Joseph's hospital.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
The only reason I'd support this is because of the lower operational costs. Is the LRT expected the be cheaper than the BRT over its lifecycle?

I'm not sure how the number of people moved per day is relevant. We measure transit demand based on how many people are using the line at peak point, direction and hour. Depending on travel patterns, 30k per day could warrant regular bus service, or even subway rapid transit (the latter would be very unusual, however).
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I just read a new article on RaiseTheHammer that there are developers lining up to buy Main Street lots if the 5-lane-wide 1-way street becomes a 2-way street.

This is a side effect that LRT would force. I would be more anti-LRT if Main remained a 2-way street. It used to be a critical part Canada's regional road system for many years, but Red Hill Valley Parkway (our brand new freeway opened 2007) along with our LINC freeway (opened 1997), has taken over that role, and it is no longer necessary to keep Main-King as urban expressways. I have mixed feelings about Hamilton having gained new freeways, but if it allowed Lower City to finally eliminate the obsolete urban expressways (Main-King), turn Main into 2-way, and LRT running both directions on King just a block north, it massively revitalizes businesses in both the Main and King corridors.

From multiple sources (plus that article on RaiseTheHammer) I've been hearing a waiting feeding frenzy by developers that seems to more hinge on the Main 2-way than King LRT, but if both happened simultaneously, watch out above. Consequently, we may have more uplift (economic difference before-after) potential than most parts of Bostons' Big Dig. Total won't be as big, but kilometer-versus-kilometer, the relative before-versus-after economic uplift potential in Hamilton apparently is bigger than Boston. That's why I approve of this stupendously expensive LRT, even if the transportation economics (by itself) is not as sound as Hurontario. The related revitalization will automatically make the LRT pay for itself big-time economically.

I become neutral or even marginally anti-LRT if they don't turn Main Street into a 2-way street. The uplift will only work partially, and car owners will complain a lot more when one direction is much more constrained than the other.

The LRT is one of the few local megaprojects that would successfully force Hamilton to give up our obsolete urban expressway (our equivalent of Gardiner), providing for a massive eventual revitalization of Main Street over the coming decade (And beyond).

There are additional reasons above and beyond this, but look at what the stupidly expensive Boston Big Dig did to revitalize Boston, big-time, that it probably will lead to Hamilton population growth far surpassing projections, even if the LRT was only a bit player. Bring on the LRT!!! It's stupidly expensive, but worth it.

Mississauga has their reasons, London has their reasons, but Hamilton has a very big (different) reasons to get an LRT.
 
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mjl08 said:
A map of the approved route, with the Centennial GO station as the green marker.

View attachment 47144
Source: Raise The Hammer
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Sorry I don't really understand this dark blue route. I'm assuming the dark blue is the LRT. Does it turn 90 degrees from the main route up James St to get to GO, then reverse and go back to the main route to continue?

That seems very strange as a transit route to me, if that's the case. It would add a lot of travel time to those just travelling on the main east-west route to go north, then south again.

Or is it a separate, very short 2nd LRT?
 
mdrejhon said:
The other factor is enhancing revitalization. Main/King are obsolete urban expressways with lots of shuttered stores (4-to-5 lane wide one way streets, one to two blocks apart, with beautifully synchronized traffic lights). Cars often dont pull over for the businesses because they are busy focussing on keeping up with the synchronized traffic light sequence.

A good LRT plan (for King) would force Main into a 2-way street, calmig traffic, making businesses more viable, allowing a massive revitalization.

If you seen the shuttered storefronts (various sections of King between Sherman and Ottawa)
Did you see how the shuttered storefronts completely disappeared from James Street when it was converted to a 2-way street?
A similiar thing would happen eventually (over a decade or two) with Main and King when both ran 2-way.

Unfortunately, the city changed their mind about converting Main Street into a 2-way street back in 2011. This has kind of been a sacred cow. But this needs to be reopened as it goes hand-in-hand with LRT.
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The same thing could be done with BRT and changing driving regulations for a fraction of the cost.

It seems to me that we're paying a lot of money for the permanence factor of rail, because Hamilton's Council refuses to implement inexpensive changes to driving regulations to revitalize the area.

I understand why advocates for revitalization are supportive of the LRT (the permanence factor, as I mentwined), but I'll still have a hard time supporting this project given how few people it will move at peak point, hour and direction.
 
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