What's wrong with tolls?

[passthedutchie]

Our highways are a mess, and capacity has clearly not and will not grow fast enough. We clearly need to get people moving using alternative methods because are highways can't take anymore cars. Why do so many Torontonians feel that our crumbling, packed highways should always be free?

These roads were built with the tax dollars and efforts of hard working Canadians, and they should not be handed over to a private corporation. But roads should not be funded through income and business taxes. Funding it through use-based fees seems far more efficient, especially because it can justify and collect more fees for larger vehicles that damage the road more.

We also have the need to improve our environment, and tolls will reduce the amount of traffic on our streets, and bring in a constant stream of money that can be invested in making improvements.

I used to be dead-set against tolls. In fact, I found it strange and I was secretly a little pissed when I drove on them in other countries. Now tolls seem like a great solution.

What are some of the objections to tolls on our highways? Or just some other thoughts?

 

[yyzer]

tolls will reduce the amount of traffic on our streets

actually, tolls will reduce the amount of traffic on our highway(s), and could increase the amount of traffic on our sidestreets...

Tolls, like all taxation, are a dis-incentive to locate businesses in the city.They add to the cost of daily operations, as they increase costs for delivery, supplies, and for employees.

I agree with you when you say "we clearly need to get people moving using alternative methods" - but how do you tell the Bank of Montreal, or any other large downtown employer, to find an alternate source for delivery of all its supplies? By all means add to the transit options for the city, but not by pricing it out of its existence.

Hopefully Mayor Miller, being the taxation whore that he is, will be steered clear of this next temptation...

 

[RedRocket191]

I support tolls for areas which have good public transit (ie the downtown core). As the mayor has said before, its unfair to charge tolls when people have no alternative - and it is society's fault that they have no alternative.

 

[Hydrogen]

Concerning highways, I don't think the mayor can do anything about those (at least on provincial highways).

I have no issue with tolls on the provincial 400 series highways - so long as they don't operate within the city limits. This way tolls become a means for funding highways, and possibly more money could then be diverted towards transit (the same measure).

I'm dubious about tolls within the city at the moment - mostly for the reasons the yyzer mentions.

 

[doady]

Hopefully Mayor Miller, being the taxation whore that he is, will be steered clear of this next temptation...

A taxation whore? Is that why Toronto always raises property taxes less each year than the 905 does?

 

[allabootmatt]

I think public/political opinion is starting to come around on tolls. There were a number of councillors who spoke yesterday about consitutuents raising the idea at public consultations. They make very good, liberal economic sense: make people pay for the use of something, and in the process create a huge new source of revenue to improve it and other parts of the transport network. Also, people are eventually going to realise that in, oh, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Miami, London, Stockholm, and so on the sky hasn't fallen because people have to pay a bit to use certain roads.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

yyz:

Conceivably, one can exempt business vehicles (at least during non-rush hours). But as with all things, the devil are in the details - how much can one conceivably charge drivers without causing undue impact to businesses but at the same time raising a reasonable amount of funding?

redrocket:

I support tolls for areas which have good public transit (ie the downtown core). As the mayor has said before, its unfair to charge tolls when people have no alternative - and it is society's fault that they have no alternative.

Not quite true - considering the majority of individuals living in the City of Toronto doesn't really have a good excuse of living in an area that is poorly served by the TTC and at the same time, live close enough to either the QEW or DVP to make either one a daily commuting route. Beyond that, more often than not one makes the conscious decision of balancing various desires - suburban living vs. ease of commute via cars - and no one can have everything.

AoD

 

[interchange42]

Assigning fault here doesn't work for choosing where to put tolls, Rocket, is it your fault that your parents bought in Valleywood for example? there are just way too many variables that come into play for why people live in various places.

That said, my thoughts in regard to tolls are that to use them merely to make certain roads unaffordable to some without at the same time adding alternatives is a huge mistake. Levy a toll on the Gardiner, and the Queensway and Lake Shore will become unbearable for example. Institute a congestion charge over the entire core without first having London-like opportunities to use rapid transit as an alternative (ie a few more subway lines downtown) and you'll have a revolt. Delivery vehicles will have no choice but to pay tolls, and the faster roads may mitigate the toll charges for them, but those who only have to move themselves from place to place will be unduly penalized unless alternative methods of moving about easily are offered.

The day a DRL opens from Dundas West through Union to Pape is the first day that anyone should consider implementing a toll or congestion charge in Toronto.

42

 

[afransen]

42,

Why is it so unfair to charge tolls here yet accepted and common practice in many regions around the world, including the fairly culturally and economically similar USA?

While there will be some pain associated with tolls, it will at first be fairly minor compared to the cost of fuel, maintenance, capital costs, and insurance at present. The revenues arising from tolls can be used to finance significant improvements.

Arguing for significant transit improvements before tolls are implemented is a tactic to fight against improved transit, in my book. It is clearly a chicken and the egg problem. We just have to bite the bullet and pay for roads what they are worth.

 

[interchange42]

Toll highways are only found in a small percentage of US city centres - less than 10% maybe. Several states - a dozen? - have statewide turnpikes, and there are lots of major bridges and tunnels that are tolled individually, while suburban toll highways are found in maybe 25% of US metro areas. Tolls were removed from I-190 in Buffalo in 2006. Tolls are just about never placed on previously free highways in the US, but have been used with greater frequency in the last decade to fund brand new suburban highways. Car culture is stronger south of the border of course, and there might be less resistance here to placing tolls on an existing highway.

I don't want to see tolls on the Gardiner and DVP individually: traffic will divert off those roads on to city streets whenever possible to avoid tolls. This city's streets are slow enough, and if they get slower, they slow public transit buses as well. Clogged streets will transfer some air pollution from stop-and-go expressway corridors to neighbourhoods as well.

If we are to implement tolls here, it would need to be in the form of a congestion charge, à la London, where every street inside a cordon would be charged. When that was implemented in London, Londoners had an alternative method of getting about: an extensive network of underground and suburban train lines. Here we only have a handful, and I don't think that adding buses to make up for that will make transit trips fast enough. We would need more subway lines to handle the move away from private vehicles were we to implement a congestion charge. Build the Downtown Relief Line, east and west sides (in some form), the Eglinton Line, complete Sheppard to SCC, and you've got the beginnings of a system that could handle the crush of people who would be driven to it by a congestion charge. Just don't implement the charge before you give people an adequate alternative means of getting around.

42

 

[afransen]

I think tolling every 400 series highway should be sufficient. I highly doubt that people will be willing to sit in gridlocked avenues to say a few bucks on the highway toll. Perhaps a modest congestion charge for the downtown area would be appropriate as well, but an independent issue.

 

[TrickyRicky]

"I support tolls for areas which have good public transit (ie the downtown core). As the mayor has said before, its unfair to charge tolls when people have no alternative - and it is society's fault that they have no alternative."

The danger with the philosophy behind left-leaning policy advocates is not their good intentions but the unintended outcomes that arise from the solution. This is not a knock at tolls, which if implemented on a wide scale throughout the GTA would be perfectly reasonable. However, test this argument, very similar to the Mayor's position on charging parking lot fees only downtown, against the unintended signals and potential outcomes that work exactly contrary to the spirit of the policy.

 

[Long Island Mike]

Tolls: Good or bad?

Everyone: Tolls can either be a revenue source well run or a major nuisance.
Some areas are only building new limited access highways as toll roads-like in Western Pennsylvania as an example. The worst tolls are the coin tolls with odd amounts found on New Jersey's Garden State Parkway and the Illinois Tollway around Chicago. As for congestion pricing check out this example: London,England here: WWW.CCLONDON.COM/ the website of Transport for London. It is informative in showing where and how it operates-I find interesting that there are free roads that actually pass thru the congestion zone! I am for alternatives to the frustration of heavy city traffic problems.
LI MIKE

 

[Chuck]

In my opinion, tolls are only fair if the following two conditions are satisfied:

1) There must be a viable alternative mode of transportation that allows you to not drive in the first place.

2) Specific parts of the city should only be tolled if 100% of the funds collected go toward projects within the tolled area.

In effect, don't toll people who have have no alternative, because that will do nothing to reduce car use, and gives people no choice but to be tolled. Furthermore, if tolls are only implemented in the downtown area, I don't want to see bus routes in Scarborough or road projects in North York getting a nice cash infusion. That's unfair to the downtown residents who are forced to pay tolls not only when they drive to work, but when they go grocery shopping, visit friends, etc.

 

[afransen]

In my opinion, tolls are only fair if the following two conditions are satisfied:

1) There must be a viable alternative mode of transportation that allows you to not drive in the first place.

This condition is never totally satisfiable. What threshold is sufficient?

2) Specific parts of the city should only be tolled if 100% of the funds collected go toward projects within the tolled area.

Why? It's not as if residents of an area will be paying all the tolls collected on the highway they live next to.

In effect, don't toll people who have have no alternative, because that will do nothing to reduce car use, and gives people no choice but to be tolled.

I disagree. If the toll is variable with respect to time/congestion level, they can choose to drive off-peak. They can choose to carpool, etc. The above could be used to argue that the government should provide garages on each individual's private property unless there is sufficient alternative so that individuals need a car. Should we pay their insurance and fuel costs too? Why not let the user pay, rather than have society shoulder the burden? It's a rather perverse incentive scheme.

Furthermore, if tolls are only implemented in the downtown area, I don't want to see bus routes in Scarborough or road projects in North York getting a nice cash infusion. That's unfair to the downtown residents who are forced to pay tolls not only when they drive to work, but when they go grocery shopping, visit friends, etc.

Out of fairness, I'd argue tolls should be implemented on all regional highways. However, I'd expect tolls near downtown to be higher. It's not unfair that some of those revenues be spent elsewhere... much of the tolling would be carried by suburban commuters.