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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 169 72.8%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 10 4.3%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 23 9.9%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 15 6.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 6.5%

  • Total voters
    232

DSC

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Ideally we try to push for as much expansion as possible before the development hits, the last thing we want is for the developments to spring up before we start building parts of the extension, and all of a sudden there's a bunch of NIMBYs that don't want streetcars on their doorstep. If Toronto wants to build out the Poison first, let's build out to Poison first, that way we have more guaranteed streetcar tracks that will be available at the end of the day.
I agree 100% but the ONLY reason to build a loop west/north of Polson would be IF the bridge over the new Don would hold up opening the east-west line. Then I would support a TEMPORARY loop closer to Cherry/Parliament. Many places build temporary on-grade tracks while doing repairs so I am thinking of something like that. Until there is a loop of some kind east of Bay, the QQ line cannot operate after the Union loop is closed for expansion.
 

drum118

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Which does raise the question, of why not build a loop - perhaps even a temporary one, at Cherry and Commissioners, instead of at Poulson, that requires another bridge.
The plan earlier this year was to have a loop as noted by you, but with all the land being raise about 5', you would have to wait until the land was raised and compacted.

To deal with all the issues with the missing LRT bridges is to delay the opening of the new river and park land. This means about 2-3 years delay as well finding the money to do it.

If we had duel end cars, no needs for a loop and time to start looking at doing this, especially for the waterfront.
 

Steve X

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TTC don't seem to be an organization that likes changes. Took them long enough to get rid of the trolley poles. We're suggesting them to change their fundamental track designs. I don't think so. They'll probably buy the exact same specs streetcars so they don't have to test them across every inch of the system again. Hopefully they'll drop the trolley poles from these new ones.
 

drum118

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TTC don't seem to be an organization that likes changes. Took them long enough to get rid of the trolley poles. We're suggesting them to change their fundamental track designs. I don't think so. They'll probably buy the exact same specs streetcars so they don't have to test them across every inch of the system again. Hopefully they'll drop the trolley poles from these new ones.
Given that the new cars are not to start showing up until 2023, they will be pans only when they arrived. TTC is supposed to be fully converted in 2022 from poles to pans.

TTC is slow to change with time and have to be drag to make changes. We looked at the new Queensway switches for the yard that are now part of the walkway while the existing sidewalk and connections are rebuilt. We shake our heads as why did TTC not use the correct switches for the new fleet in place of the old style.

Love to see duel end cars on the Waterfront line as it will do away with loops.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Love to see duel end cars on the Waterfront line as it will do away with loops.
Probably won't happean as the TTC doesn't want to have a sub frllet of stretcars onthat can only operate one section of the network.
TTC is slow to change with time and have to be drag to make changes. We looked at the new Queensway switches for the yard that are now part of the walkway while the existing sidewalk and connections are rebuilt. We shake our heads as why did TTC not use the correct switches for the new fleet in place of the old style.
They were built to handle single blades switches per the specs the TTC gave all of the builders. Yes, double blade switches are optimal shower they may still have them in stock and have not yet had new ones built aside from the ones they put in at Lessile barns.
 

ARG1

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so a waste of money by Waterfront Toronto

Not actually a problem that it needs a silly canopy for.
The cost will be negligible as a percentage of the final cost. Especially when you're designing transit, it shouldn't just be "functional".

This is functional:
1625021075502.png

This is also a station I never want to ever use in my life.

It never hurts to add additional money to make your transit unique and memoral - this is what sticks in people's heads when they visit, and makes people thing of your city more highly. People know about the Stockholm Metro because of its large underground, and absolutely badass underground caverns, or the Moscow Metro that has stations so beautiful that they hold museum like tours of the system. Even something like Montreal Metro's brutalism makes it standout compared to other metros. Something that makes Toronto transit actually nice is something that is sorely lacking within the region barring specific examples like the Spadina Subway or the Viva Rapidway.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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The cost will be negligible as a percentage of the final cost. Especially when you're designing transit, it shouldn't just be "functional".

This is functional:
View attachment 331214
This is also a station I never want to ever use in my life.

It never hurts to add additional money to make your transit unique and memoral - this is what sticks in people's heads when they visit, and makes people thing of your city more highly. People know about the Stockholm Metro because of its large underground, and absolutely badass underground caverns, or the Moscow Metro that has stations so beautiful that they hold museum like tours of the system. Even something like Montreal Metro's brutalism makes it standout compared to other metros. Something that makes Toronto transit actually nice is something that is sorely lacking within the region barring specific examples like the Spadina Subway or the Viva Rapidway.
I don't see how a canopy over a streetcar tunnel entrance is necessary and I also fail to see why you want to bring in a picture of a station from another countries subway system as a comparison. I personally think that waterfront Toronto has not done a very good job at all. They conducted surveys of car usage on Queens Quay in a way that I think seems very shady by cross referencing licence plates to where people live and then assuming that they were using it to avoid the Gardner. They also poorly missed that mark when it came to not having any sort of barriers between the sidewalk, bike path and Streetcars. Also, don't fort they were siuposded to be building some bridges over the harbour which we haven't seen or heard anything about since they proposed them.

Waterfront Toronto and the city of Toronto should also put up proper railroad crossing signs at all of the roads that cross streetcar tracks that have the right of way only on one side because they have effectively created a railroad in as private right of way.

Also just to clarify I am not against having nice things but if it's not really something that is necessary for the operation of the line them I don't see a need to build it.
 
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turini2

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Let's take this one bit at a time, shall we?

I don't see how a canopy over a streetcar tunnel entrance is necessary and I also fail to see why you want to bring in a picture of a station from another countries subway system as a comparison.
An example of why a canopy would be necessary - decreasing snow/water/road salt ingress into the tunnels, improving the traction of vehicles going up/down the slope and improving the reliability of the rails/tunnel/signalling/structures. There's a reason escalators and lifts tend not to be left exposed outside!

Secondly, it looks nice - the Waterfront is a major tourist attraction, and a canopy would be a nice(r) thing to look at, rather than the current utilitarian and ugly concrete structure.
They conducted surveys of car usage on Queens Quay in a way that I think seems very shady by cross referencing licence plates to where people live and then assuming that they were using it to avoid the Gardner. They also poorly missed that mark when it came to not having any sort of barriers between the sidewalk, bike path and Streetcars.
That's how you do surveys - you work out where people are going to and from. Queens Quay shouldn't be a major east-west route for cars, that's what Lake Shore Blvd/Gardiner are for. The street has turned out as designed - with large increases in cycling, walking and a reduction in car traffic.

Take a read of this on Complete Streets - "streets that are designed to be safe for all users: people who walk, bicycle, take transit or drive, and people of varying ages and levels of ability. They also consider other uses like sidewalk cafés, street furniture, street trees, utilities, and stormwater management."

With regard to "barriers" - Queens Quay isn't a highway, its shared between a wide variety of uses. Research in the UK showed that pedestrian railings/barriers actually decreased safety for pedestrians as drivers sped more, and there were more accidents!
Also, don't fort they were siuposded to be building some bridges over the harbour which we haven't seen or heard anything about since they proposed them.
Bridges are still coming, and they've been talked about a fair bit in this thread over the years. Recommend reading the Waterfront TO site for more information.
Waterfront Toronto and the city of Toronto should also put up proper railroad crossing signs at all of the roads that cross streetcar tracks that have the right of way only on one side because they have effectively created a railroad in as private right of way.
No, because streetcar tracks aren't a railroad. Next!
Also just to clarify I am not against having nice things but if it's not really something that is necessary for the operation of the line them I don't see a need to build it.
Street trees aren't essential, but we install them on our streets because it improves the street, helps the environment and makes it a nicer place to be.
Nice granite pavers with maple leaf motifs along Queens Quay isn't essential - you could have regular concrete pavement - but it improves the streets and makes it a nicer place to be.
Public art in our public realm or subway stations isn't essential - but it makes the City a more attractive and visually interesting place to live, work and play.

Lets encourage high quality urban design, rather than settling for the bare minimum.
 
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Bureaucromancer

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Lets encourage high quality urban design, rather than settling for the bare minimum.
I'd argue that there is a real distinction that needs to be made between high quality material and construction, high maintenance standards and artistic architectural design above an beyond functionality.

The latter isn't necessarily undesirable, but we really ought to have a clear idea of what we spend on it, and consider the opportunity cost of that aesthetic in terms of functionality. In real numbers, that old "1% of budget" metric for public art on American projects feels reasonable to me. If there's closer to a 10% premium I've got issues with this kind of thing.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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An example of why a canopy would be necessary - decreasing snow/water/road salt ingress into the tunnels, improving the traction of vehicles going up/down the slope and improving the reliability of the rails/tunnel/signalling/structures
Snow water and road salt are not a problem for the streetcars they have onboard sanders that give them traction when they need it. A decrotigvbe "art" pice isn't nedeed to cover the opening for any sort of protection at all
There's a reasoI don't see how comapring a vechel n escalators and lifts tend not to be left exposed outside!
Not sure how that compares to a vehicle that is designed to be used outside alos if it was importat to cover over the tunnel entrances for the streetcar then why don't we have decrtice art pices over all of the other ones in the city. Maybe because it's from oirver functin andf uncecsary
No, because streetcar tracks aren't a railroad. Next!
In this case, I would argue that they are because they have positioned th track in a spot that is different than the rest of the city and people don't expect them to be only on one side of the street as posed to the center of the road where they can drive on them or they have curbs around them. An example of this would be in Kitchener for the sections of the ion light rail that run on one side of the street they have signs that show people they are crossing the track. I am not talking about pitting up flashing lights or crossbucks or crossing gates all I mean is that people should be warned that they is going to cross track.

waterloo-lrt-sign.jpg

Signs like this are aprorte for alignmets of streetcar tracks that are beside the road
 

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