War of 1812

Discussion in 'Politics & Diplomacy' started by Southoftheborder, Jun 16, 2012.

  1. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    Maybe a Canadian can explain to me why Canada makes a big deal out of The War of 1812. It was started to punish Britain for violations of international law. It was ended in New Orleans. It has never been so important to Britain or the USA, the principal combattants. So why is a third party treating it as an important event?
     
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  2. W. K. Lis

    W. K. Lis Superstar

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    I would direct you to get the two books on the War of 1812 by Pierre Berton:

    • The Invasion of Canada 1812-1813
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    • Flames Across the Border: 1813-1814
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    They are both available for download on iBooks. There is a special download copy that includes both books in one: Pierre Berton's War of 1812.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
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  3. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    Uh, wait, is that historian saying Britain won the War of 1812? I think Andrew Jackson might quibble with that interpretation. Yeh, no doubt there were Americans who thought having an ally of the Crown perched on our northside was not desirable. But after the initial attempt, there was no followup to annex Canada. I think this is all about defiance of Big Brother to the South, no matter how much mythology you have to use. Too bad this spirit wasn't there to prevent NAFTA. That would have been very useful.
     
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  4. W. K. Lis

    W. K. Lis Superstar

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    From the Star, at this link:

    With the British, Russia, etc. fighting France (Napoleon) in Europe, the war in North America made the War of 1812, the first world war, not WWI.
     
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  5. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    No, the Revolutionary War was WWI. England and France were fighting in India at the same time as France was providing support to the 13th colonies at Yorktown in America.

    By the way, I read some online about Canada and the War of 1812. It got its territory back at the Treaty of Ghent, but the use of First Nations people to fight the USA probably helped doom them throughout the future states. They'd chosen to fight with America's enemies and were now considered a danger to the new nation. They won consideration throughout Canada (Sitting Bull went north after the Little Big Horn) but they'd shown their colors in the territory controlled by the US government, so they now had a target on them till the last uprising was put down. Not a prominently mentioned fact when discussions about US history touches on First Nations. After the War of 1812, they all should have migrated, but of course tribes like Seminoles and Apache had no idea what had been done by northern tribes.
     
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  6. doug

    doug Active Member

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    Uh, what are you trying to say? It's common knowledge that american history books tend to be mostly fiction.
     
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  7. W. K. Lis

    W. K. Lis Superstar

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    You mean the US did not win the Vietnam War?
     
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  8. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    Never mind. I know what this whole thing is about. Corporations on both sides of the border see a looting opportunity. Stephen Harper is there to help them in any way he can. But in democracies, there's always a necessity to misdirect voter attention as the looting commences. So that's when some ludicrous issue of patriotism is very handy. When Reagan was preparing to silence all the guard dogs, he started giving ringing speeches about freedom and painting the USSR as an immediate menace. It didn't fool everyone, but it did enough. Meanwhile, the gates were thrown open in every industry for executives to do what they wanted. The whole process of wealth transfer began in earnest. Plus, the secret plan to sell arms to Iran proceeded, as well as the support of the Nicaraguan contras. Meanwhile there was Reagan, the leader of the cheerleading squad giving his teary accolades to America's "greatness".

    Now we have NAFTA, which really should be called the Contract To Loot A Continent. Again, leaders have to direct attention AWAY from efforts to exploit it. So whaddyaknow, suddenly a tiny incident where Canada won a couple of battles is THE BIG THING. All I can say is when you feel the hand in your pocket, try NOT to look at the flag they are waving. This is how pockets have always been picked. This is how millions of men's lives have been lost. If you really need the pride of those battles on Lake Erie (or wherever), congratulations, you are the entree on the looter's menu!
     
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  9. doug

    doug Active Member

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    Suddenly? tiny? lol.

    Here's a question for you, why do americans claim to have invented the telephone?
     
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  10. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    What a bunch of suckers. Harper really has a crop to harvest. Well, go ahead, have your "Reagan moment", but don't start crying when you discover later how bad this blindness kept you from seeing how your country is being scammed. We had Reagan and Bush. You all talk so much like their fans that I can predict what is coming.
     
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  11. doug

    doug Active Member

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    You guys voted in 2 bushes and a reagan....and we're suckers? lol...typical yank ;)
     
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  12. Southoftheborder

    Southoftheborder New Member

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    As I said about looting:
    "Two U.S. oil companies have won their complaint against Newfoundland and Labrador over spending obligations related to their participation in an offshore oil play. A Canadian trade official confirmed Friday that Canada had lost the case after unofficial reports from a U.S. website broke the news that Exxon Mobil Oil and Murphy Oil won a 2-1 decision by a panel under the North American Free Trade Agreement. The report said Canada and the U.S. were advised on May 22 that the obligations for research and development spending imposed on the oil firms by the province breached Article 1106 of NAFTA prohibiting governments from applying performance requirements as conditions of investment. The panel is seeking additional information before assessing a penalty, but the parties originally sought more than $50 million in compensation Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/business/Canada+loses+NAFTA+ruling+play/6719822/story.html#ixzz1y5q8KfsL"]Two U.S. oil companies have won their complaint against Newfoundland and Labrador over spending obligations related to their participation in an offshore oil play. A Canadian trade official confirmed Friday that Canada had lost the case after unofficial reports from a U.S. website broke the news that Exxon Mobil Oil and Murphy Oil won a 2-1 decision by a panel under the North American Free Trade Agreement. The report said Canada and the U.S. were advised on May 22 that the obligations for research and development spending imposed on the oil firms by the province breached Article 1106 of NAFTA prohibiting governments from applying performance requirements as conditions of investment. The panel is seeking additional information before assessing a penalty, but the parties originally sought more than $50 million in compensation Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/business/Canada+loses+NAFTA+ruling+play/6719822/story.html#ixzz1y5q8KfsL[/URL]
     
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  13. jn_12

    jn_12 Senior Member

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    I actually would disagree that the Bicentennial of the War is a Harper propaganda ploy or that it's insignificant. I think it's very much worth commemorating. Here's a few reasons why:

    1. It's the only war on Canadian soil against another country (not including the battles against natives).

    2. It's a war in which a different outcome would have potentially resulted in Canada's non-existence.

    3. In some parts of the country, like Niagara, it's a very big part of local history.

    4. We tend not to commemorate Canadian history (even if it's technically pre-Canada). I think some of the discomfort around commemorating the event (along with some people mis-categorizing it as a "celebration of war") is that we're not a country that is in touch with our historical roots. There are very few statues and monuments in this city, and cities throughout the country, especially in comparison to America and Europe. We're just not overt about these things. My hope as someone who is into heritage and heritage preservation is that this milestone might act as a catalyst towards Canadians being more interested in our history.

    5. I think the one way it could have been seen as a celebration is as a celebration of 200 years of peace with our closest neighbour.

    6. Simply because the event is one-sided in its importance doesn't make it less of a significant event. It might seem odd but the best example I can think of is the World Junior Hockey Championships, which this country celebrates like mad for 2 weeks at Christmas time while the rest of the world isn't aware they're even on. If it is important to you, why should you allow the lack of acknowledgement elsewhere to cheapen it?
     
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  14. Tewder

    Tewder Senior Member

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    It's not about glorifying war, it's about mythologizing history. All societies have their myths that reflect the values of society. The focus in Canada on 1812 has been on the 'myth' of a combined effort between British soldiers, Canadian militia and loyalists, women (laura Secord) and native people (and black peope thanks to Runcey's Coloured Corps) coming together for the first time in defence of an emerging vision of Canada. It's a very inclusive view, deliberately, and the fact that we choose to view the war through these optics is a reflection of our ethos as a nation. It's the same perspective wherein Canadians like to view their armed forces as 'peace keepers' rather than military...
     
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  15. AlvinofDiaspar

    AlvinofDiaspar Moderator

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    Tewder:

    We shouldn't "mythologize" history, as beneficial (or harmful) as it maybe - we should seek to understand it in the most neutral terms possible. That's the best way to do service of - and more importantly, learn from it.

    AoD
     
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