Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[11th]

This is so true... that long walk between the 84/196 (soon to be 84E) is really a discouragement for using that station for travel other than along the Yonge subway. For example, I frequently take the York Mills bus and transfer to the Wilson bus/Rocket because of the much shorter walk.

With all the work they did at Sheppard-Yonge at the time, a convenient connection between services east and west of Yonge should've been obvious, considering they built a new Line 4 entrance right beside the bus terminal.

They were anticipating a westward extension to be built soon. If line 4 ever gets extended to Sheppard West, very few will do the line 4 subway to bus transfer at Sheppard-Yonge.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Correlation? Perhaps. Causation? Definitely not. Sheppard-Yonge is probably the most sprawling station (and one of the prettier ones) in the system, and it's the fourth-busiest. Rosedale, Summerhill, Castle Frank and Chester are small, boring and generic and have garbage ridership. Nobody says "Hey, I'm going to go to a different station because this one looks too nice."

Ironically half those stations were considered to have the best architecture. Also, people may not choose to use a particular station but developers tend to build around nice things.

 

[APTA-2048]

Is there a firm timing for when the first trains will depart each end of the new line next week?

I would hate to repeat the events of Feb 26, 1966, when a friend and I arrived at Keele Station..... just in time to hear the very first train rumble eastwards out of the station. (At least Train #3 had fewer people standing at the front windows ;-) )

- Paul

The first train should leave Vaughan at 07:50. The other one should leave Sheppard West at 07:43.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The grander the station the less people will use it. All the new stations are beautiful and grand. However they are located in mostly sparsely populated areas and will be utterly empty for most of the day. Sure York U will be fairly busy as will Finch West and Pioneer Village during peak hours. Outside of peak and on weekends, these stations will be ghost towns. Especially places like VMC and 407 station and Downsview Park. Downsview Park has no usefulness as a station and the only reason it’s there is to connect with Barrie line trains. It should have been built a lot further south closer to the actual Downsview Park sports centre.

Meanwhile our downtown stations are packed to the brim because they are well used but also because the initial designs were idiotic and they built these core stations on the cheap and did not account for putting in proper mezzanines and platform widths. During rush hour it takes forever to get into or leave the downtown stations because there is usually one stairs and one escalator to facilitate vertical movement. When trains are delayed in afternoon rush the crowds on Yonge Line stations College-Dundas-Queen-King are so large that they are dangerously close to a hazard.

Sheppard West station could be considered "Grand" but it seems to be quite busy most of the day. 40,000 PPD is arguably quite high for a subway station (Maybe not a terminus but definitely a station).

Downsview Park station should have been built with a fare-paid area for buses to drop off passengers along Sheppard Avenue (Kind of like the VIVA stop at VMC), but it's usage as a station will be severely limited until local development and RER are completed/commenced.

Finch West and Steeles west will probably be some of the most used stations in the system, especially when the Finch West LRT opens. Both will see well over 1000 buses a day and Steeles/Finch West will alleviate pressure at Finch (so many people). Even if it's not busy all day, the demand still warrants a subway there.

VMC will hopefully spur the development it promises. The parking complaints we've seen though go to show that it will be doomed to fail to spur much development for the foreseeable future.

407 needs to have 407 East buses travel to it and either the buses need to be in the fare paid zone or Metrolinx needs to establish a zone with a price to York University -$1.50.

I believe the purpose of building these stations to be so big is so that they are adequate for hundreds of years to come. Unfortunately, some will become financial burdens.

 

[nfitz]

Correlation? Perhaps. Causation? Definitely not. Sheppard-Yonge is probably the most sprawling station (and one of the prettier ones) in the system, and it's the fourth-busiest. Rosedale, Summerhill, Castle Frank and Chester are small, boring and generic and have garbage ridership. Nobody says "Hey, I'm going to go to a different station because this one looks too nice."

To some extent. Though Castle Frank isn't that small with the new second exit (have they put entrance turnstiles in) closer to Parliament, and sprawling bus terminal - which always looked to me like it had been sized for a streetcar loop). I wouldn't have put it in the garbage ridership category either - it's higher than Museum, or Lawrence East that many are having conniptions about the plans to close. It's almost as high as Greenwood and High Park, that no one talks about being non-necessary. Given the significant increase in frequency of the Parliament bus in the last couple of years, I'd think that Castle Frank ridership could easily continue to rise.

Though it's a shame they didn't add a tunnel under Bloor to the south side. That always feels like such a hellish street to walk over - especially at night. Perhaps there'll be an opportunity when they add the elevators. Though if they want to get really creative, they could also put an exit from the elevators at Bayview Avenue or Rosedale Valley Road.

407 needs to have 407 East buses travel to it ...

I'd hope so. Is there a post opening GO map yet? I've certainly taken 407 East buses in the past that get off at Jane and go to York, going right past 407 station. (edit - looking at current routing - hmm, must have been Keele - perhaps I'm thinking of the YRT bus down Jane.

 

[Streety McCarface]

To some extent. Though Castle Frank isn't that small with the new second exit (have they put entrance turnstiles in) closer to Parliament, and sprawling bus terminal - which always looked to me like it had been sized for a streetcar loop). I wouldn't have put it in the garbage ridership category either - it's higher than Museum, or Lawrence East that many are having conniptions about the plans to close. It's almost as high as Greenwood and High Park, that no one talks about being non-necessary. Given the significant increase in frequency of the Parliament bus in the last couple of years, I'd think that Castle Frank ridership could easily continue to rise.

Though it's a shame they didn't add a tunnel under Bloor to the south side. That always feels like such a hellish street to walk over - especially at night. Perhaps there'll be an opportunity when they add the elevators. Though if they want to get really creative, they could also put an exit from the elevators at Bayview Avenue or Rosedale Valley Road.

Can we just re-establish a Parliament streetcar and have it go down Front or Something? I see so much potential at this station.

 

[nfitz]

They were anticipating a westward extension to be built soon. If line 4 ever gets extended to Sheppard West, very few will do the line 4 subway to bus transfer at Sheppard-Yonge.

I'm not sure a lot do it now. Most people coming off Line 4 seem to head to Line 1.

You can see why it's not there though - there's no need for a connection at all. With stations at Willowdale and Senlac, there should be no daytime bus service left at Sheppard, other than perhaps an infrequent Yonge and Sheppard buses, that wouldn't pull into any stations. Even now it's a huge piece of infrastructure for what it is - they could probably sell it off, and get something smaller built.

Heck, the existing Line 4 tunnel already goes all the way to where Senlac station box starts - might as well just build it and the Senlac bus can just stop there.

Can we just re-establish a Parliament streetcar and have it go down Front or Something? I see so much potential at this station.

Sounds good to me. I always figured that Castle Frank station was designed with this in mind. Which isn't surprising as the station was mostly constructed by early 1965 with the underground works completed by early 1964, and streetcar service on Parliament to Bloor continued to Viaduct loop until 1966.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'd hope so. Is there a post opening GO map yet? I've certainly taken 407 East buses in the past that get off at Jane and go to York, going right past 407 station.

I heard somewhere on the CPTDB that GO was not planning on moving East buses to 407 station until further notice (probably after fare integration). I believe you saw it as well.

 

[Megaton327]

TYSSE stations are now showing up on Google Maps.

EDIT: if you put in transit directions and set the date to Dec 17 or later, the schedules are loaded and it will route you using the TYSSE, including bus route changes/bus terminals. It's interesting to put in start+end points and click back and forth between the 16th/17th or 15th/18th for weekday service and see how it changes.

EDIT 2: it seems YRT/Viva has also updated for the changes including the Viva Orange restructuring and the VMC rapidway station. Zum has not updated for the VMC stop at least, nor has GO for the 407 bus terminal nor Downsview Park train station.

 

[amnesiajune]

Sheppard-Yonge is a mess of a station. It was over built with the middle platform for Line 4 that will never be used with a terrible flow design. The vertical circulation is awful for those who want to get from bus terminal to Line 4 - having to go down to Line 1 and then come up to Line 4 platform. I used to use this station all the time and many people were confused on how to get to Line 4. They would often to go the unused westbound platform only to find out there are no trains there. There should have been a simple path built for people to go from bus terminal to Line 4.

This is so true... that long walk between the 84/196 (soon to be 84E) is really a discouragement for using that station for travel other than along the Yonge subway. For example, I frequently take the York Mills bus and transfer to the Wilson bus/Rocket because of the much shorter walk.

I never said it was functional. Just really big (and yes, so is Downsview).

Sheppard has an awful design for a few reasons. The main station -- just like Lawrence, York Mills and Finch -- was built back when the TTC had fare zones, so buses wouldn't be pulling into the fare paid area. The TTC ditched fare zones when the subway opened though, so it just became a pain. And like someone else said, the awkward layout of the top level is a result of the Sheppard subway getting truncated (Downsview was built in the 90s so the Sheppard subway would have a transfer with the University-Spadina side). If it had been built as originally planned, the bus terminal would only have the infrequent local buses.

Can we just re-establish a Parliament streetcar and have it go down Front or Something? I see so much potential at this station.

The route doesn't have enough ridership to justify streetcar service, according to the TTC.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The route doesn't have enough ridership to justify streetcar service, according to the TTC.

Yeah, but neither do the 503, 502 and 501 past Humber. However, tracks are there. Not much infrastructure is required to complete everything. Besides, ridership isn't the only reason to use streetcars.

 

[TransitBart]

The grander the station the less people will use it. All the new stations are beautiful and grand. However they are located in mostly sparsely populated areas and will be utterly empty for most of the day. Sure York U will be fairly busy as will Finch West and Pioneer Village during peak hours. Outside of peak and on weekends, these stations will be ghost towns. Especially places like VMC and 407 station and Downsview Park. Downsview Park has no usefulness as a station and the only reason it’s there is to connect with Barrie line trains. It should have been built a lot further south closer to the actual Downsview Park sports centre.

Meanwhile our downtown stations are packed to the brim because they are well used but also because the initial designs were idiotic and they built these core stations on the cheap and did not account for putting in proper mezzanines and platform widths. During rush hour it takes forever to get into or leave the downtown stations because there is usually one stairs and one escalator to facilitate vertical movement. When trains are delayed in afternoon rush the crowds on Yonge Line stations College-Dundas-Queen-King are so large that they are dangerously close to a hazard.

It is not fair to condemn downtown stations 60 years after their opening for passenger levels no on in 1954 could have contemplated. Manhattan and London have similarly small stations in older sections for example.

I also refuse to speculate on usage of stations not yet open. Finch West will join the network as an interchange almost from the beginnning, any station near a Ünver site will be mobbed and there is another IKEA on the subway at VMC Station.

Let’s see what the trends are in a year.

 

[TransitBart]

Can we just re-establish a Parliament streetcar and have it go down Front or Something? I see so much potential at this station.

Go to the Flexity thread and see how diverting half the 504 traffic up Parliament would solve a nasty loop rebuild problem at Broadview. The idea of the 504 King by Parliament car may have come again. I think your idea has much merit.

 

[amnesiajune]

Yeah, but neither do the 503, 502 and 501 past Humber. However, tracks are there. Not much infrastructure is required to complete everything. Besides, ridership isn't the only reason to use streetcars.

Ridership is the one and only reason to use streetcars. There are other benefits but none justify the higher operating & maintenance costs and lost flexibility (being unable to get around stalled streetcars or accidents). Streetcars make sense on routes where you can actually run them frequently and have more than the 40-50 passengers that fit on each bus. In the case of the 502 and 503, ridership is high enough to justify a streetcar during rush hour. For the 501 west of Humber, I think it exists for political reasons - people along the route don't want to lose their quaint streetcar even if the service is mediocre. They'd rather have a streetcar every 10-15 minutes than a bus every 5-10.

 

[Sandpit]

I heard somewhere on the CPTDB that GO was not planning on moving East buses to 407 station until further notice (probably after fare integration). I believe you saw it as well.

I went there and didn't see it. Anyway, I think it may be that GO does not want routes terminating at Highway 407 Station at this time (for whatever reason).