Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Are you suggesting a City of Toronto tax, or a Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area tax?
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Who made that argument? Certainly not I. I don't really see anyone saying that. It's absurd that any municipality should be entirely responsible for their own projects give the financial and legislative constraints in place (and this applies doubly so to to the "Richmond hill should build its own subway!" crowd).
Leo's suggestion is simple and effective: a sales tax that included the entire GTA (or GTHA or whatever) would provide a fiscal common interest and sense of unity that now does not exist. So too would almost any of the revenue tools Wynne rejected. (Not so, to the Toronto-only tolls, however.)
You probably want us all to say, "they all go to Toronto!" but that's not actually true. For many in Barrie, Toronto is a world away. It's undoubtedly true Toronto is a magnet for such things, however, and so it ends up taking on additional costs, if that's your point. But let's not oversimplify complex issues. Do that and you run the risk of a Lastman-esque, "There are no homeless people in North York!" Of course there are.
But then it all goes to the larger point I and others have made that the municipal boundaries are obsolete; how we collect taxes and fund things does not align with how people live their lives,whether you're talking about travel patterns, real estate, the job market or social services.
As long as municipalities are kept on a short leash and as long as people have a "not my problem!" attitude to anything outside their tax-boundary, none of those problems get solved. That applies equally to suburban transit/intensification and to helping homeless kids in Barrie before they have to make their way to Toronto.
The problems have far less respect for jurisdiction than taxpayers and parochial politicians.
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muller877
Senior Member
Way off topic.
http://homelesshub.ca/community-profiles/ontario/toronto
Toronto has 4300 being supported + 900 "others" per the agencies that are funded to support the homeless (conflict of interest there) = 5200 homeless people (note that the homeless facts are for the city of Toronto but the population is the GTA). 0.2%
York Region has about 3200 people in shelters & funded (there is no street count nor estimates of other people). 1.1m people. 0.3%
Simcoe county (barrie) has 1400 people in emergency beds with 170,000 population = 0.8% homeless.
So NO. Toronto does not take on more homeless. And yes. Smaller cities have a higher unemployment and are helping more than Toronto with people in need.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
OT - those numbers look a little odd.
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Yeah, it's getting OT. 
I've done some work and research in the homelessness sector and suffice to say it's a cause-and-effect thing. People from the 905 flock to Toronto in large part because of a lack of a social services in the 905 which is largely because those municipalities and the public at large delude themselves that homelessness is an "urban problem," that surely does not happen in their communities. It does. (Again, see my Mel Lastman reference.) The same naievete might make suburbanites think they don't have drugs or crime in their communities but they do.
(I do think those number are being mis-interpreted somewhat. York Region has VERY few shelter beds, for example, and so has many "hidden homeless" who are neither in shelters nor sleeping on sidewalks. But Toronto definitely has many more people on its streets The Homeless Hub has a "State of Homelessness" report on their website and a report done specifically on York Region a couple of years ago, if anyone actually cares.)
On thread, the larger issue remains that if you don't acknowledge the problem and address it at the proper scale (ie by saying "the traffic in Markham or economic issues in Mississauga are not Toronto's problem!") then it will, in the fullness of time, become abundantly obvious just how much it is everyone's problem and always was.
I've done some work and research in the homelessness sector and suffice to say it's a cause-and-effect thing. People from the 905 flock to Toronto in large part because of a lack of a social services in the 905 which is largely because those municipalities and the public at large delude themselves that homelessness is an "urban problem," that surely does not happen in their communities. It does. (Again, see my Mel Lastman reference.) The same naievete might make suburbanites think they don't have drugs or crime in their communities but they do.(I do think those number are being mis-interpreted somewhat. York Region has VERY few shelter beds, for example, and so has many "hidden homeless" who are neither in shelters nor sleeping on sidewalks. But Toronto definitely has many more people on its streets The Homeless Hub has a "State of Homelessness" report on their website and a report done specifically on York Region a couple of years ago, if anyone actually cares.)
On thread, the larger issue remains that if you don't acknowledge the problem and address it at the proper scale (ie by saying "the traffic in Markham or economic issues in Mississauga are not Toronto's problem!") then it will, in the fullness of time, become abundantly obvious just how much it is everyone's problem and always was.
BMO
Senior Member
Toronto doesn't finance the entire province, the entire Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area as a region help finance the rest of the province. Also the TTC is not practically self-funded from Toronto residents, it's self funded by people from around the Region who connect and use it as well via fares. Toronto is not given an incredibly poor hand. they have received the most capital funding for transit projects out of any municipality in the country yet they have nothing to show for it because of the City's remarkable ability to never push anything through. Toronto deals themselves a bad hand every election, it's not dealt to them. It's not the 905's fault that Rob Ford was elected, or any of the other things Torontonians like to blame for the lack of transit progress.
sixrings
Senior Member
As a Torontonian I sadly agree that the 416 really Fd themselves up electing Rob Ford. I know some people will argue that TC didnt make perfect sense but rarely is everyone happy. The reality though is we could have had Finch, Sheppard, the srt conversion running by now and Eglinton coming up. All that would have left us with is the DRL which i am sure that Miller himself would have agreed privately was needed. Instead we likely will not have anything on sheppard. Finch is behind. Who knows whats happening with the SRT. And we have to somehow wait for these projects to be finished now to begin the DRL campaign. What a royal F up. But dont worry everyone... YEAAAAAAH FOR SMART TRACK!!!!!!!!..... SMH
WislaHD
Superstar
I would say our loony transit decision making (and how it translates politically in elections) is a result of having every transit project be forced to compete with each other for the limited capital funds available.
I disagree that 905ers contribute a great deal to our system in fares. I'd love to see some evidence on this if it exists as I am curious myself, but I highly highly doubt it surpasses 10% of all fares. I think people forget just how much Torontonians use public transit compared to 905ers, and just how many Torontonians there are. Our arterial bus routes handle incredibly high numbers of people per day, many of which is local and not connecting to the subway, so we often dismiss them on this forum when we are talking about subway ridership and extensions.
And I would say that while the GDP output of the GTHA is significant, that without a shadow of doubt Toronto is the economic engine of the region. Toronto functioning is necessary for the rest of the region to function.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
All these things can be true:
-Toronto is treated, legislatively, like a child and requires far more support regionally, provincially and federally if it is to continue to develop as the biggest and most important city in Canada
-Toronto has terribly mismanaged its own affairs, particularly in regards to transit, making short-sighted, ill-informed decisions, reversing course, wasting time and money and immaturely refusing to take advantage of the scant powers it does have or to have an honest conversation with residents about the economic and political reality
-The GTA, GTHA, Ontario and Canada will not succeed as long as Toronto is failing
-Toronto cannot succeed if the larger region is failing (ie due to a lack of investment in infrastructure, increased sprawl etc.)
Not mutually exclusive at all. And all these things have far-reaching implications for the rest of the region. In an era of free trade (Trump and Brexit notwithstanding) it's awful naive to suggest Toronto and Markham and Mississauga shouldn't be working together a lot more than they are.
If Wynne wants to salvage anything out of all this mess, she'll give Metrolinx a lot more power (which is also to say, money) and cut their ties to cabinet before sailing off into the sunset. Otherwise, all these contradictions will keep playing out against each other to everyone's detriment.
-Toronto is treated, legislatively, like a child and requires far more support regionally, provincially and federally if it is to continue to develop as the biggest and most important city in Canada
-Toronto has terribly mismanaged its own affairs, particularly in regards to transit, making short-sighted, ill-informed decisions, reversing course, wasting time and money and immaturely refusing to take advantage of the scant powers it does have or to have an honest conversation with residents about the economic and political reality
-The GTA, GTHA, Ontario and Canada will not succeed as long as Toronto is failing
-Toronto cannot succeed if the larger region is failing (ie due to a lack of investment in infrastructure, increased sprawl etc.)
Not mutually exclusive at all. And all these things have far-reaching implications for the rest of the region. In an era of free trade (Trump and Brexit notwithstanding) it's awful naive to suggest Toronto and Markham and Mississauga shouldn't be working together a lot more than they are.
If Wynne wants to salvage anything out of all this mess, she'll give Metrolinx a lot more power (which is also to say, money) and cut their ties to cabinet before sailing off into the sunset. Otherwise, all these contradictions will keep playing out against each other to everyone's detriment.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That would have been the solution long before Wynne - we had the Golden Report, we had the GTSB, no government prior or current had the urge to do what is right. I am not sanguine about possible PC or NDP government doing the same either.
And don't just point fingers at Toronto - look at the whole Hurontario LRT affair and how that played out (or the joke that is Durham). The malaise is fairly regional in scope. You got to wonder how things would work if there is a GTHA level of regional government.
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BMO
Senior Member
Well I'm sure if you move the goal posts enough you can justify it any way you want. The fact is that a statement was made saying only Toronto supports the rest of the province, and I pointed out that it was factually incorrect, just like saying only Toronto supports the TTC, which is also factually incorrect regardless of whether 905ers account for 20% or 10%. The fact is that Toronto isn't being hard-done by everyone else and if one hopes for Toronto to lift themselves out of this mess it would behoove them to start grasping reality in the sense that it's not "Toronto against everyone" as Drake likes to put it but it's also not "an incredibly poor hand" that's been dealt to them...at least no worse than any other jurisdiction in Ontario. This isn't meant to diminish how important Toronto is, but it's that very sense of entitlement that clouds transit decisions in our city.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Then let's stay on-thread: York Region has been 100% consistent in its growth management and transit planning (notwithstanding long-term master plans showing potential subway expansion northwards.) They didn't once change their plans, they built their projects as planned, on-time and on-budget. They didn't ask staff to build an LRT through a ravine, nor did the Mayor of Markham scrap their BRT plans as "fancy buses."
That, as you point out, make them the exception. And yet, every 10 pages like clockwork we get, "they should build their own subway!" Or, per Cobra, "their politicians are DESPERATE!"
No good deed goes unpunished. Better to keep funding whatever half-assed project Ford or Tory dreams up - because Toronto is so legitimately important and far behind that it hardly matters what you build as long as you build - than rewarding municipalities for proper execution of policy and planning.
If we're going to "point fingers," let's admit that York Region has been a rare exception instead of (not saying YOU) blaming them for trying to get even more transit.
(And as BMO points out, Toronto may have been dealt "a poor hand," but the COTA gives them far more (UNTAPPED) power to handle their own affairs than everyone else. Once they max out those opportunities, they can complain more fairly about being treated like the "boy in short pants." In the meantime, Mississauga can't impose a Land Transfer Tax etc. so, pick your battles.)
WislaHD
Superstar
No other municipality is dealing with the following:
- Decades old, failing transit infrastructure in need of upgrading, and a repairs backlog that is in the order of billions.
- Chronically over-congested transit system in desperate need of expansion.
- A very large transit system whose operating budget is practically entirely funded from the fare-box, regardless if fares are coming from 416 or 905.
- Massive backlogs in other infrastructure like Community Housing, also in the order of billions, that are competing for funds from Toronto's minimal sources of revenue.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Think it's time for a Metro Vancouver style government in the GTHA.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
If your plans are dependent on capacity from other jurisdictions, it may not be that great a plan in the first place. That's the reality with Yonge extension - no amount of denial can change that. Not to say it shouldn't go ahead, but there should be a clear start for the DRL as a prerequisite. Perhaps York Region should work with Toronto to make sure it happens - for our sake and yours.
Yes, but changing institutions is always the "easy" part - it's not a guarantee for change if you still can't come to a region-wide consensus to raise transit funding, have a logical approach to transit expansion, etc - imagine how the politics of the region as it currently stands would play out in a government like that? Self-determination is just step one.
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