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TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Unfunded/Planned)

W. K. Lis

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We're already talking about names?

Next up: A discussion on washroom locations 😅

Likely the cheapest "memorial" washroom possible, to please the non-transit using penny-pinching decision makers. Like this one at Cedarvale Station...
img_0137-jpg.309713

From link.
 

Bureaucromancer

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Even if you just build the connector stations and plan to add the infill stations after, I think it will be worth starting construction as the line 1 extension opens.
The version that makes sense to me (and has been brought up in EAs, though not particularly planned for) would be to build the 407 Station, Yonge and Unionville stations with just dedicated ramps to and from the highway until traffic requires the actual transitway for congestion relief. Unionville in particular would be a huge improvement for both 407 and Viva service quality.
 

alexb

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Maybe this has already been posted before but I found this particular quote interesting from https://edrh.rhpl.richmondhill.on.ca//default.asp?ID=s6.8 :

"But the optimism generated by the new train service turned to gloom at Richmond Hill. The surveyors and engineers had run the line six kilometres (about four miles) west of Yonge Street to avoid the steep slopes of Gallows Hill and Cemetery Hill, Hoggs Hollow and Richmond Hill. Not until King City did the line angle northeast towards Yonge Street and Aurora. Topography cost Richmond Hill a steam railway."

It seems we are still facing this issue 150 years later 😵
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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So was anyone else at the consultation meeting? Overall, I thought Metrolinx did a good job, as much as one could. There were some good questions and some good answers.
Of course, there were also lots of antagonistic questions, like:
"Why did Markham not have better planning and are disrupting the ecosystem and well settled residents who have lived in the neighbourhood for 49 years and paid tax?" and
"Do any of the decision makers and enablers have a subway running under their house?"

I empathize with people concerned about tunneling under the neighbourhood and think there's an onus on Metrolinx to demonstrate it'll be fine, but at least give turn a chance to answer! (also, if you've been there 49 years, you probably bought your house for $15K and won't have trouble walking away with some equity). Having been to a lot of public meetings over the years, there are always people who are just there to vent, and not actually to hear an answer to their patronizing questions. The Metrolinx folks said they do have examples of subways tunnelled under neighbourhoods and best practices about vibrations etc. and all that info will be provided in a user-friendly format.

Several questions were along the lines of "how much will you pay me if I complain I feel vibrations?" or "What will you guys do when our property values tank and I don't want my house anymore?" but they just gave rote answers about expropriation (as they should), which is kind of a different issue.

They led off with some more practical/fair questions about "how come you can't dig under a cemetery because it's sensitive but you can dig under our neighbourhood?" and explained all the reasons they went with the alignment they did (which should also put a rest to the continued "I have my own alignment idea!" maps we see here. There's nothing you've come up with they didn't already test and reject.)

Someone asked about cut and cover but the guy didn't seem to understand the question (which was framed in terms of station depth rather than just a better option than tunnelling), so someone will have to try again next time there.

They had a pretty wide array of people on their "panel," and said all the right things about how they're listening, they're just starting the EA consultation, the details still haven't been set etc. And of course some people just wanted to say, "You're only consulting us after you've decided to destroy our homes!" but I guess that's all to be expected. So, it's contentious, but moving along.
 

GenerationW

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I also love how you constantly talk about how OL should be extended past Eglinton because otherwise it wouldn't do anything (which is completely false), yet constantly champion Transit City, a plan that would run the DRL only to Danforth, and past that would run as an LRT that would do absolutely nothing to relieve the Yonge Line.
Oh, it was much, much worse than that. There was no DRL at all in Transit City, just a Don Mills LRT from Steeles to Pape Station. And even that was never prioritized.
Why would you write Willowdale in your address? It isn't a city. Canada Post doesn't use it either. Just curious.
Not sure about now, but Willowdale was commonly used for decades. Canada Post did not allow the use of North York until Mel Lastman got it approved in the 80s after years of complaining.
The Yonge and Bloor lines have plenty of above ground sections - this is in dense, urban environments. There's absolutely no reason these suburban extensions shouldn't have above-ground portions.
You'd think transit genius David Miller would have foreseen the possibility of no above ground sections when he brought the motion to council for the City of Toronto to fund the Yonge extension EA in 2009. How did he miss that?
Ford certainly has something to do with it - his rhetoric and nonsense has helped set transit expansion in Toronto back for decades. We can certainly hold Ford and his government accountable for dropping billions to bury these suburban subway extensions and not making the same investment into the one line (the OL) that actually needs the capacity.
$11 billion for the OL is skimping out on investment? That will be, if built, the most expensive local transit project in Toronto history. By comparison David Miller decided to invest $5-6 billion on Eglinton and a big fat zero on a relief line. How many decades did he set things back? Gotta be neck-and-neck with the Fords on the relief line file.

No fan of Doug, but he has made a far bigger commitment to city's #1 transit priority than any other politician. And for the record, I prefer the city's DRL plan.
 

W. K. Lis

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Oh, it was much, much worse than that. There was no DRL at all in Transit City, just a Don Mills LRT from Steeles to Pape Station. And even that was never prioritized.

Not sure about now, but Willowdale was commonly used for decades. Canada Post did not allow the use of North York until Mel Lastman got it approved in the 80s after years of complaining.

You'd think transit genius David Miller would have foreseen the possibility of no above ground sections when he brought the motion to council for the City of Toronto to fund the Yonge extension EA in 2009. How did he miss that?

$11 billion for the OL is skimping out on investment? That will be, if built, the most expensive local transit project in Toronto history. By comparison David Miller decided to invest $5-6 billion on Eglinton and a big fat zero on a relief line. How many decades did he set things back? Gotta be neck-and-neck with the Fords on the relief line file.

No fan of Doug, but he has made a far bigger commitment to city's #1 transit priority than any other politician. And for the record, I prefer the city's DRL plan.
Transit City was for the missing middle ground for public transit, reaching most parts of the amalgamated city at the time. Why do you think the Don Mills LRT southern terminal was at Pape? Because it would have connected to a proposed Downtown Relief Line.
 
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CaskoChan

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Transit City was for the missing middle ground for public transit, reaching most parts of the amalgamated city at the time. Why do you think the Don Mills LRT southern terminal was at Pape? Because it would have connected to a proposed Downtown Relief Line.
Another Kennedy station scenario?
 

syn

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You'd think transit genius David Miller would have foreseen the possibility of no above ground sections when he brought the motion to council for the City of Toronto to fund the Yonge extension EA in 2009. How did he miss that?

I see. So this is David Miller's fault for bringing a motion to fund an EA 12 years ago?


$11 billion for the OL is skimping out on investment? That will be, if built, the most expensive local transit project in Toronto history. By comparison David Miller decided to invest $5-6 billion on Eglinton and a big fat zero on a relief line. How many decades did he set things back? Gotta be neck-and-neck with the Fords on the relief line file.

No fan of Doug, but he has made a far bigger commitment to city's #1 transit priority than any other politician. And for the record, I prefer the city's DRL plan.

Yes.

Compared to the EWLRT and SSE, they are value engineering this project, the one project that needs as much capacity as possible. The other two do not.

It's kind of amazing that Miller is getting the blame here. Every transit project recently completed and currently under construction were/ Miller projects.

He also supported the DRL.

Miller was the only post-amalgamation Mayor who could actually get anything done.

Transit City was for the missing middle ground for public transit, reaching most parts of the amalgamated city at the time.

Exactly. It wasn't perfect, but it had a lot of merit.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Obviously we can get off-track on a whole thing here but Transit City was, as @W. K. Lis said, a "missing middle" plan.
It wasn't perfect but it found a good way to cover a lot of ground for relatively little money. It'd be built now if the Fords hadn't messed it up, and while it wouldn't have been perfect, it would have solved a lot of problems that are now coming home to roost, the biggest being the end of the SRT in Scarborough, years before the subway will be there to replace it. (In addiition to the later-phase Don Mills LRT, there was a Jane LRT, that would have interfaced with the 407 subway station...)

But it's also correct it didn't have the DRL, in any form, which has since become Toronto's Holy Grail. As has been said here before (by me and others) DRL -which should have been built in the 80s, IMHO - was dead in the water until the Yonge Subway Extension put TTC's focus on the need to relieve Yonge/Bloor. If the Province (and then York Region) hadn't pushed for YNSE, Ontario Line wouldn't exist today. Thta's not to say Doug Ford is more of a Transit Champion than David Miller, but the latter didn't have DRL anywhere on his radar.

Now, sorting out cause-and-effect with transit in our region is a real headache. There's lots of blame to go around and more "What ifs" than anyone can count. Every plan has been politicized and every plan has been imperfect. It's deeply regretful that Rob and Doug derailed Transit City, even with its flaws. If the Province actually builds its 4 big projects (this + Scarb, Ont Line and Crosstown West) we'll have built some desperately needed projects.. but some them are versions of things that could have been built cheaper and many years earlier. We just have to take the goo dand band move on and hope this at least finally all gets built.
 

syn

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*cough* *cough* just gonna leave this here if anyone wants some more context. I uploaded it last week.

This is excellent work, well done! Keep it up.

I agree that the DMLRT was Transit City's biggest flaw. For me, however, it was one aspect of the project that could've been updated to be a full subway - one would hope they would've gotten to that point. I know David Miller was a DRL proponent and the city was beginning the process in 2009/2010.

Miller is also a great example to me of why pacifying certain areas of the city to move on to more important projects will never work. I recall people suggesting we needed to just build the SSE and spend whatever money necessary so that people in other parts of the city would support the DRL.

That hasn't really happened.

In going along with the TYSSE and supporting the YNSE, there wasn't any new desire to support a 'downtown subway'. There was simply increased demand from another part of the city to get their subway. There's always going to be some area of the city that believes they aren't getting what they deserve (and often rightfully so).

Even with the OL, you'd think people would be universally livid that Ford is actively choosing to allocate billions to bury suburban transit projects, when that money could be used to build the higher capacity line the OL should be (and needs to be). I think it just goes to show money isn't as big of a factor as we make it out to be. It's available, they're just choosing to spend it where it's most politically advantageous for them to do so.
 

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