Leo_Chan
Senior Member
I believe an updated document is suppose to go to Toronto City and York Region Councils in Q4 2019.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
This is correct.
This report was supposed to update the DRL as well so who knows if it will still be on schedule and/or what it will say at this point, however.
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TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Ah, if you page down to Page 117 in this Markham Council Report, you can see what's going on with Royal Orchard. They commissioned a planning study that found the station can actually be justified. I remain skeptical but if they can achieve that level of density there, more power to em.
(It's also interesting the variables with the Ladies Golf Course. As I mentioned, they sold off some land for development closer to Bayview but I thought most of the land closer to Yonge was in the floodplain. I guess some of it is ready to sell and build on when they're ready...)
(It's also interesting the variables with the Ladies Golf Course. As I mentioned, they sold off some land for development closer to Bayview but I thought most of the land closer to Yonge was in the floodplain. I guess some of it is ready to sell and build on when they're ready...)
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Woah. That is like, very dense population projections.
How do they want to achieve that?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The Growth Plan requires them to achieve 200 people and jobs within 500m (800m, once Doug Ford's Amendment is passed) so they "have to" do that, one way or another and prove they can do it, if they want this station. As I said off the top, the presence of the valley an the Uplands neighbourhood seemed to offer limited potential, but their pitch is they can do it.
These images are a 800m and a 500m radius around the intersection. You can easily see how much of it is golf course and/or stable residential...
The Ladies Golf Course (on the east side of Yonge) can be redeveloped somewhat, particularly in those areas adjacent to the neighbourhood. But the west side is much more of a valley. I dunno but I'm sincerely curious to see where this goes.
These images are a 800m and a 500m radius around the intersection. You can easily see how much of it is golf course and/or stable residential...
The Ladies Golf Course (on the east side of Yonge) can be redeveloped somewhat, particularly in those areas adjacent to the neighbourhood. But the west side is much more of a valley. I dunno but I'm sincerely curious to see where this goes.
lead82
Senior Member
If you look at the radius, you realize that the Langstaff stop is just north of the 800m radius, so the south part of Langstaff can cover almost half of the same territory that Royal York would cover. I don't see the need to have both Langstaff and Royal York. While there is some redevelopment potential along Yonge, most of the residential neighborhood will not change any time soon. This area is not considered a growth node, so the official plan doesn't recommend much if any intensification. All of that is saved for Langstaff Gateway and RHC.
My bet is that if this gets built, Royal Orchard station will not be part of it.
My bet is that if this gets built, Royal Orchard station will not be part of it.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Is John/Centre a better location for a station than Royal ORCHARD.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
It's bizarre they wouldn't even consider placing a stop there, it's a concession road for pete's sake. Even if it draws Bessarion levels of daily foot traffic, it still does away with the need for a parallel bus service on Yonge south of Richmond Hill Centre entirely if 800m station spacing is upheld.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
It’s like not putting a stop at Jane on Viva Orange, oh wait...
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I don't think so, no. It basically has the same greenspace/valley constraints that Royal Orchard does AND it's the heart of the heritage district, which is a major restriction on development. You'll never get more than 6 stories, anywhere on Yonge. The advantage is that Centre is a collector road but it dead ends at Yonge anyway and does not really funnel thru-traffic on John, as if they're the same road. There's nothing, in terms of function, that Clark can't do just as well. (Clark is a 50 km/h 4-lane, Centre is a 40km/h 2 lane with stop signs etc.).
Yes, Royal Orchard is not a growth node BUT there is a catch 22; if there is a subway station, it has to hit 200 people/jobs per hectare, per the Growth Plan. So, if the region wants to argue a station should go there, that's the number they have to prove is viable. It's also incorrect that all the intensification is funnelled to the Urban Growth Centre. Both Markham and Vaughan have passed Secondary Plans to facilitate intensification along the entire corridor. I don't have the maps in front of me (easy to find, though) but the Markham report cited above is based on tweaking the density figures already in place; and those existing density allowances are greater than what is there now.
Interestingly, the Region recently put out a report delineating the MTSAs for all the Viva stops and subway stations and Royal Orchard was NOT on the list. Maybe later I can find and post the relevant maps, as they're kind of interesting.
In the meantime, I remain skeptical it makes sense but if they can demonstrate it, more intensification along Yonge is a good thing, in the big picture.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I still had the file open so these are the MTSA maps for each station; the red line basically shows where intensification can/should go. Or, phrased better (since there are already apartment buildings etc. in some of these areas), it is within this boundary that the overall density target must be achieved. Note that the Langstaff boundary is at Helen, which is just 2.5 blocks from Royal Orchard. And, at least on the Markham side of Yonge, the Clark boundary is just one block south of John St.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I don't know this area that well, but a quick glance at Google streetview shows nothing that could be considered Heritage.
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Clark already has a station, and it's almost 3km to the 407 station, so 1 station in between is not unreasonable.
lead82
Senior Member
Same can be said in Scarborough, yet we argue about the number of stations on that extension and the cost to build them. Ultimately its a fix amount of money to go around. If we overbuild here, then we starve the system where it needs it. This has been the Toronto model - We overbuilt where its not needed (e.g. Sheppard, Spadina line) but under-built where it is (downtown). Now we have a Yonge line that is unstable and completely unreliable on a daily basis. It's the exception when train move on time and there is not a delay.
Ultimately, until the stability issues are resolved, this line extension will not entice more people to use it as it's full and unreliable.
Ultimately, until the stability issues are resolved, this line extension will not entice more people to use it as it's full and unreliable.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Must have been a very quick glance. I'm not sure what you were looking at and I don't have time to mark up a map but there is plenty visible to the naked eye. It is a designated Heritage Conservation District, on both sides of Yonge (and indeed, IIRC, the Markham side was the first in Ontario). The District designation comes with a lot of restrictions on what you can do.
Some fast examples - this pub at Yonge/Centre is heritage. You will not see another building on this corner:
This is half a block west:
One block south, one block west:
Over to Yonge and John, here's a plaza attached to a heritage building; note the sympathetic architecture:
Two heritage buildings, on Yonge, the block between Centre and John. Note the "Village Library" with the red roof one building down the street.
AND the west side of the street. Your plan would entail demolishing this block of buildings and the ones in the previous picture. (In case you're wondering, yes, they are really quite good pastries!)
The Markham side, as you go in off Yonge, has many heritage (and really nice!) homes like these:
If you care to read or scan them, the plans for Vaughan and Markham are online; you can see the maps and the rules in place.
And that's why it won't get a station. As you can see , this will never happen. It's effectively "illegal." Overall, the coherence of the heritage, particularly on Yonge, hasn't been maintained as one might have wished but the rules are in place to ensure it's not degraded any further.
raptor
Senior Member
The matter of Royal Orchard station is coming before the YRRTC Board of Directors meeting on May 8 (Private session)