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TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Funded/Planned)

TJ O'Pootertoot

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^ You don’t need to expropriate homes to go underneath.

Except, actually you do.
(You don't need to TAKE the whole house, but you most definitely need to compensate the owners because, just as we think of air rights, you own everything above and below your property,)

Best reference I could find quickly was this one, from Ottawa.
Screen Shot 2021-12-12 at 2.06.45 PM.png


EDIT: And just for overkill, here's another one, from a Provincial regulation about temporary easements, in this instance, and by Metrolinx.
Screen Shot 2021-12-12 at 2.11.36 PM.png
 
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Darwinkgo

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Below grade in the metrolinx document isn’t contemplating tbm depth. And yeah if you go to expropriate an easement for tbm tunnelling I bet you’re looking at a symbolic amount - like $5000 a house. There isn’t any market value for 30m down. It isn’t like running a natural gas line in your side yard installed by cut and cover which then sterilized the land use, or even a fibre optic line 12 inches down.

If people want their house expropriated then the province should. Buy and resell immediately. Metrolinx should make a profit.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Eventually all the land takings will be public but all I'm saying is that every affected homeowner gets something (and probably more than $5k) so it's almost certainly cheaper to go under the road and 20 homes instead of going under 40 homes.

None of us knows how the math balances out but I think it's jumping to conclusions to assume the move of the alignment is more expensive, particularly in the context of what appears to be fewer expropriation payments.
 

Darwinkgo

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Eventually all the land takings will be public but all I'm saying is that every affected homeowner gets something (and probably more than $5k) so it's almost certainly cheaper to go under the road and 20 homes instead of going under 40 homes.

None of us knows how the math balances out but I think it's jumping to conclusions to assume the move of the alignment is more expensive, particularly in the context of what appears to be fewer expropriation payments.
Going deeper means deeper ventilation shafts. Stronger fans.

It is pretty easy at this stage to just dismiss it as a zero cost move. But considering the total budget it is hard to dismiss this as nothing.
 

44 North

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Going deeper means deeper ventilation shafts. Stronger fans.

It is pretty easy at this stage to just dismiss it as a zero cost move. But considering the total budget it is hard to dismiss this as nothing.

but TJ used his "math skills". It actually saves money
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Going deeper means deeper ventilation shafts. Stronger fans.

It is pretty easy at this stage to just dismiss it as a zero cost move. But considering the total budget it is hard to dismiss this as nothing.

More fans??
Watch the Engage High Tech presentation and make sure you factor that into the budget before assuming this tweak, going deeper and requiring bigger fans, is putting even a dent in the budget, particularly when you compare what's already saved going from Option 1 to 3.

Maybe it somehow costs a bit more. I dunno for sure. Maybe they don't! But I doubt it's more than a fly on an elephant, at worst. The sheer number of factors that go into evaluating alignment and station locations is so long that to single this one out because of politics and its visibility seems meaningless to me.
 
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allengeorge

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Maybe it somehow costs a bit more. I dunno for sure. Maybe they don't! But I doubt it's more than a fly on an elephant, at worst.
I don’t think anyone knows because Metrolinx isn’t releasing any information. All we have is a vague statement from Phil Verster.

What is stupid about this entire change is how (essentially) 40 people managed to get a line alignment changed and deepened to the point where this tunnel is the deepest in the entire system.

For comparison:

 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Someone should show that Rome example to the Royal Orchard ratepayers :)

I'm trying to hold a few thoughts in my head at the same time:
-Yes, it's absurd this small group got it changed.
-But it's not really that big a change and certainly not the big change the small group thought they deserved.
-It's still a net gain vs. Option 1 in pretty much every respect.
-The media spin on it (suburban homeowners appeased by Province, who won't do the same for Toronto residents) isn't entirely fair.
-I empathize with people who are worried that there's a subway under their neighbourhood and who are getting scary letters in the mail now.
-But I'm not impressed with their hyperbole (eg Does Metrolinx provide counselling services?) or their apparent belief that anything short of doing exactly what they want means they were ignored or that it was the wrong decision.
-I'm not impressed with the posturing of Lantsman or other pols who have no direct bearing on the decision, but who get to stand there and say they're just plain not impressed.
-In a way this is a best case scenario in that by adjusting the route, Metrolinx shows they listened to residents and if 20 of them are still unhappy, too bad. Likely the cost is negligible and if it's more, well, that's the cost of living in a democracy where we consult (perhaps to a fault) and have to follow certain processes.
 

W. K. Lis

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I don’t think anyone knows because Metrolinx isn’t releasing any information. All we have is a vague statement from Phil Verster.

What is stupid about this entire change is how (essentially) 40 people managed to get a line alignment changed and deepened to the point where this tunnel is the deepest in the entire system.

For comparison:


Response by the Royal Orchard ratepayers on this rebuttal...

joaquin-phoenix-commodus.gif

From link.
 

Voltz

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Was it ever actually identified that the previous alignment would cause noise or vibration issues with those homes?
 

W. K. Lis

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I forget the exact terminology but Metrolinx said it would be effectively imperceptible. The residents did not seem willing to take their word for it.
Ask them when did they experience an earthquake in Toronto?

From link.

sglzone.gif

This region has a low to moderate level of seismicity when compared to the more active seismic zones to the east, along the Ottawa River and in Quebec. Over the past 30 years, on average, 2 to 3 magnitude 2.5 or larger earthquakes have been recorded in the southern Great Lakes region. By comparison, over the same time period, the smaller region of Western Quebec experienced 15 magnitude 2.5 or greater earthquakes per year.

Three moderate sized (magnitude 5) events have occurred in the 250 years of European settlement of this region, all of them in the United States - 1929, Attica, New York, 1986, near Cleveland, Ohio, and 1998, near the Pennsylvania/Ohio border. All three of these earthquakes were widely felt in southern Ontario but caused no damage in Ontario.

From link.
1639417967661.png

During 2020, Toronto had 5 quakes of magnitude 2.0 or above. There were also 2 quakes below magnitude 2.0 which people don't normally feel.
Biggest quake: 2.6 quake 15 mi north of Medina, Orleans County, New York, USA, 2020-03-29 12:04:46 -05:00

If they did feel those earthquakes in 2020, they might feel a train deep underground.

1639418389004.png
 

ViveleCanada

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Was it ever actually identified that the previous alignment would cause noise or vibration issues with those homes?
Metrolinx did a rough experiment with the TYSSE under York U to see if those claims had any foundation:

University lecture hall becomes testing lab for noise levels on Yonge North Subway Extension

TLDR: TYSSE has a similar profile to what YNSE was supposed to be (20 metres/6 storeys below the surface and under buildings). Their conclusion, the trains were only as loud as a whisper if you sit in the basement of a building right above the tunnels.

*They did the tests in a lecture hall, which is designed to amplify noise, and a concrete basement, which reflects sound. A person in a normal residential building probably wouldn't even register any noise.
 
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