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TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Funded/Planned)

nfitz

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These people are absolutely ridiculous and part of the reason why our transit takes forever to build in this province because they gotta appease the people that cry.

Absolutely disgusting.
These groups (some of them at least), don't oppose transit. They oppose Metrolinx's very poor community consultation, and process.

It's often not even a question of timeframe - for Lakeshore East, the EA was completed years ago - and if didn't have technical failings in it, wouldn't be creating havoc now, with the new impacts much worse than was ever anticipated in the EA.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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I agree the coms have been bad - but I also think they're wilfully misunderstanding.
They make it sound like Metrolinx made a hard decision and then popped out of the woodwork. Truthfully, it was presented as an OPTION, with explanations as to why. To date, no FINAL decision has been presented. And even then, there is still a TPAP, which involves consultation.

So I'm of 2 minds:
1) Metrolinx has done a bad job explaining the process and a worse job explaining how/why these people have nothing to worry about with vibrations etc. They've made some half-hearted efforts but at the public meetings, really offered nothing concrete to say, "Hey, folks -we get your concern but the tunnels will be 20m underground and here's a half dozen examples of how it's been done and it shows you've got nothing to worry about. We're committed to providing you with all the data and engaging with you throughout in order to alleviate any concerns."

2) These people got their backs up immediately and didn't want to hear any explanations anyway and didn't want to engage in consultations and really have no interest in this multi-billion dollar project beyond how it impacts a couple of dozen homes. If, for example, Metrolinx explained they could move it back to Yonge but it would cost taxpayers another $2B, I'm sure they'd see it as a victory. And then we got all the politicians posturing because they have nothing to lose by telling these people they have their backs, even while knowing they can't do much.
So they don't oppose "transit," because they want to the subway on Yonge and they probably want that Royal Orchard station, but it's a selfish desire with no willingness to sacrifice and goes a bit beyond just the process.

So, plenty of blame to go around, IMHO. There's still time for both sides to do better, if either has an interest in doing so.
 

cplchanb

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I agree the coms have been bad - but I also think they're wilfully misunderstanding.
They make it sound like Metrolinx made a hard decision and then popped out of the woodwork. Truthfully, it was presented as an OPTION, with explanations as to why. To date, no FINAL decision has been presented. And even then, there is still a TPAP, which involves consultation.

So I'm of 2 minds:
1) Metrolinx has done a bad job explaining the process and a worse job explaining how/why these people have nothing to worry about with vibrations etc. They've made some half-hearted efforts but at the public meetings, really offered nothing concrete to say, "Hey, folks -we get your concern but the tunnels will be 20m underground and here's a half dozen examples of how it's been done and it shows you've got nothing to worry about. We're committed to providing you with all the data and engaging with you throughout in order to alleviate any concerns."

2) These people got their backs up immediately and didn't want to hear any explanations anyway and didn't want to engage in consultations and really have no interest in this multi-billion dollar project beyond how it impacts a couple of dozen homes. If, for example, Metrolinx explained they could move it back to Yonge but it would cost taxpayers another $2B, I'm sure they'd see it as a victory. And then we got all the politicians posturing because they have nothing to lose by telling these people they have their backs, even while knowing they can't do much.
So they don't oppose "transit," because they want to the subway on Yonge and they probably want that Royal Orchard station, but it's a selfish desire with no willingness to sacrifice and goes a bit beyond just the process.

So, plenty of blame to go around, IMHO. There's still time for both sides to do better, if either has an interest in doing so.
Im more inclined to think that most of the nimbyers are due to #2. For many of them nothing will change their minds no matter how you describe them.
 

afransen

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I agree the coms have been bad - but I also think they're wilfully misunderstanding.
They make it sound like Metrolinx made a hard decision and then popped out of the woodwork. Truthfully, it was presented as an OPTION, with explanations as to why. To date, no FINAL decision has been presented. And even then, there is still a TPAP, which involves consultation.

So I'm of 2 minds:
1) Metrolinx has done a bad job explaining the process and a worse job explaining how/why these people have nothing to worry about with vibrations etc. They've made some half-hearted efforts but at the public meetings, really offered nothing concrete to say, "Hey, folks -we get your concern but the tunnels will be 20m underground and here's a half dozen examples of how it's been done and it shows you've got nothing to worry about. We're committed to providing you with all the data and engaging with you throughout in order to alleviate any concerns."

2) These people got their backs up immediately and didn't want to hear any explanations anyway and didn't want to engage in consultations and really have no interest in this multi-billion dollar project beyond how it impacts a couple of dozen homes. If, for example, Metrolinx explained they could move it back to Yonge but it would cost taxpayers another $2B, I'm sure they'd see it as a victory. And then we got all the politicians posturing because they have nothing to lose by telling these people they have their backs, even while knowing they can't do much.
So they don't oppose "transit," because they want to the subway on Yonge and they probably want that Royal Orchard station, but it's a selfish desire with no willingness to sacrifice and goes a bit beyond just the process.

So, plenty of blame to go around, IMHO. There's still time for both sides to do better, if either has an interest in doing so.
For $2B, couldn't we just offer to buy out anyone concerned about the subway within a few hundred meters? Then flip those houses after the subway opens for a profit.
 

sche

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For $2B, couldn't we just offer to buy out anyone concerned about the subway within a few hundred meters? Then flip those houses after the subway opens for a profit.
Or even better, rezone for medium density then flip!
 

Bordercollie

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Or even better, rezone for medium density then flip!
Some of those areas are single unit dwellings, you would need to rezone the whole street or whole neighborhood. It's not like a specific street corner or specific square.

You expect the province to buy out 1000 houses, uproot those families and then build condo's? They should continue along Yonge to the cemetery and then hang a right to the rail way right of way. Then the only permission you need is from Holy Cross, and you wouldn't impact any homes.
 

wopchop

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Or even better, rezone for medium density then flip!
For $2B, couldn't we just offer to buy out anyone concerned about the subway within a few hundred meters? Then flip those houses after the subway opens for a profit.
So much wrong with this ethically.
Basically the government should bully citizens into selling, then make profit off it.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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I was making up the $2b as a number simply to demonstrate they don't care what the impacts may be of changing the alignment, they just want it out of their neighbourhood, no matter what.

Anyway, the Province can't expropriate "just cuz" though I'm sure some residents would like the Province to just buy out their houses. I've always said the same thing: if the vibrations are an issue, Metrolinx should be upfront. But if they're not, residents are should stop the melodramatic dog and pony show. Either way, I'm willing to agree with them that the dialogue needs to be more open. But that's it.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Oh York Region: always knowing which strings to pull.

They did this on the Spadina line too. I dunno what the big deal is. They're passing the buck to developers instead of taxpayers. And why shouldn't they, given the massive development the subway will unlock and that the entire purpose of DC's is to ensure that kind of development pays for enabling infrastructure?
 

allengeorge

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They did this on the Spadina line too. I dunno what the big deal is. They're passing the buck to developers instead of taxpayers. And why shouldn't they, given the massive development the subway will unlock and that the entire purpose of DC's is to ensure that kind of development pays for enabling infrastructure?
Have other cities/regions been able to get this special dispensation?
 

MisterF

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These people are absolutely ridiculous and part of the reason why our transit takes forever to build in this province because they gotta appease the people that cry.

Absolutely disgusting.
To be fair, another big part of the reason transit takes so long to build is that when a new government gets elected they throw out transit plans years in the making to start from scratch. And then wonder why people are upset when the plans change.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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To be fair, another big part of the reason transit takes so long to build is that when a new government gets elected they throw out transit plans years in the making to start from scratch. And then wonder why people are upset when the plans change.

Yeah, I mean the original TPAP for Yonge was done in 2008/09. I don't think anyone is surprised costs have gone up so much. That it wasn't thrown out entirely is a miracle! The current Crosstown isn't identical to the 1990s Eglinton Subway but it's effectively the same project insomuch as that it would look very different if that project had been completed. Things change when you have to start over and while I understand the concerns when you make up and suddenly find the alignment has changed as is under your neighbourhood, it's still annoying how they're saying to just go back to the previous alignment, without addressing the cost or other reasons it's changed.

Have other cities/regions been able to get this special dispensation?

Fair question - I don't know. But the way stuff gets built here is so slapdash, it's hard to do apples-to-apples. Most of the recent transit expansion has been Provincially funded, so it's a moot point. Like, K-W didn't have to DCs for Ion because they didn't pay for Ion, right?

In this case (and Spadina), there were Provincial, Federal and Municipal shares. The DCs are used for the municipal portion. The details are a bit fuzzy for me but I wanna say that out of the municipal 1/3 on Spadina, it was like 1/3 of that was Toronto's and 2/3 was York Region's; I forget if Toronto was allowed to use DCs for their slice but I believe so.

Here, with Yonge, Toronto doesn't even have a municipal portion so the entire municipal slice of the pie is York Region's. I can't imagine that if there was a Toronto portion, only YR would be allowed to use DCs.
 

steviej1

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Can someone please explain why it is still worth building this subway if it will not have Cummer and Royal Orchard Stations? It seems to me like it will only make life more difficult for those living or working on Yonge Street. How is it worth it?
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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You've asked the same question before, a few times in a few different ways. It's all laid out in the Initial Business Case Metrolinx published.

The subway will provide transit for the substantial number of riders north of Finch and even hugely more substantial new growth around Highway 7 {at least 50k new residents and 1000s of jobs). On balance, Cummer and Royal Orchard offered relatively few new riders and in the case of Cummer few new riders who weren't already within walking distance of either Steeles or Finch. Particularly with Royal Orchard, I'm not sure how adding it makes life easier for people living/working in Yonge to any significant degree. There's not much development potential, existing ridership or transit connections there and it's not like those people are forbidden from using the subway: they just have to get on one stop further north or south. In short, for the money it would cost to build the stations (and operate them, and the extra time for trains to stop at them etc.) you wouldn't be getting good bang for your buck.

Anyway, many here think there's a chance one of those stations still gets added (and Cummer would be my guess) but the extension makes plenty of sense as it is and probably would have made plenty of sense even when it was 3 stations. If you're asking sincerely, that's how and why the cost-benefit analysis says it's worth it.
 
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