News   Jul 30, 2021
 5.5K     9 
News   Jul 30, 2021
 243     0 
News   Jul 30, 2021
 835     0 

TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Funded/Planned)

ARG1

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
2,940
Location
North Toronto
Seems to me that the government is angling to push forward Alignment 2, preferably with federal and York Region money to build extra stations.

They have the already designed case, their preferred case, and the weird value engineered case.
Tbh, I actually prefer Option 3 the most. Sure its not direct, but what it does is maybe make above ground subway extensions more popular and more common, and it would make future north extensions extremely cheap and easy. Stations like the proposed High Tech station only make sense with Option 3, and based off many diagrams they show us, it really does feel like Option 3 is the one they think they'll end up building.
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,627
Reaction score
2,373
It would be strange to aim for densities, and then drop either Cummer of Clark.

Once the subway opens, frequent bus service along that stretch of Yonge will end. From Finch to Steeles, it is almost 2 km. What are the residents of all towers in between supposed to do, if there is no Cummer station? Walk for 1 km? Not a big deal for those in good health and during good weather, but that doesn't cover all people and all situations. Or, should they wait for bus 97, which comes once in 15 min at best?

Steeles to Hwy 7, that's an even longer stretch, although it has much less towers and the density is uneven.

In the LRT discussions, a 800 m stop spacing was considered problematic because of the walking distances, but here, 2+ km seems to be OK ..
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
13,559
Reaction score
24,512
Location
Toronto/EY
Here's a link. It helps to see the topography if you don't know the area, as there's a big valley to the south.
View attachment 306496
If there's one benefit to this subway extension, it's that it puts developer pressure to make those golf courses disappear

So, you both made me look.............

At the floodplain maps for this area.

Surprisingly, perhaps, lots of developable table land.

1616101209719.png


Blue is floodplain. So anything still green could, in theory, be considered for development, in whole, or in part.

Lets look at the course on the west side of Yonge:

1616101285177.png


The potential density here is fair, but its a bit further and more disconnected from Yonge.

It would almost certainly require at least one new bridge across the valley to be efficiently exploited.
 

Leo_Chan

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
3,218
Reaction score
1,977
Location
Richmond Hill
I think the idea of the "Bridge-center" station between Highway 7 and Highway 407 is neat. It makes use of that dead space and has great potential for transfers to the Richmond Hill Line. Would it be considered a partially elevated bus terminal? I think the station at High Tech Road is fine as long as there are entrances north of the station to lead to the developments.

As for which station gets picked to be the midblock station, I wouldn't be surprised if none of them are chosen to lower cost. Leading to the 4 km section of tunnel.

I wonder if YRT will widen the Highway 7 Yonge connector road to allow for 2 dedicated bus lanes for Viva Blue to go directly into the new bus terminal? Also, would YRT be angry that their bus terminal building extension will go to waste after 10 years?
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,627
Reaction score
2,373
Speaking of redeveloping the green spaces .. one can maintain that Golf Courses take lots of space and serve relatively few people, and therefore should be moved away from the prime land near major transit lines.

But, wouldn't you want to convert them to public parks, instead of just build condos? All those new residents need green space, too ..
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
2,929
Reaction score
1,184
View attachment 306564

The potential density here is fair, but its a bit further and more disconnected from Yonge.

It would almost certainly require at least one new bridge across the valley to be efficiently exploited.
Yeah, there's land... but you have to go kinda far from Yonge to get to it, which defeats the point. No one wants a condo out where it says "Thornhill Country Club."
As you can kind of see, that row of houses south of the country club and north of the pond and Bridle Path-style, $5M+ houses, up on a hill. I dunno what you can build down below that...
But it's all interesting, the moving pieces here.

Cummer remains a tricky one. What I should do (and I apologize for laziness!) is look at Toronto's draft MTSA delineation (if there is one yet?) for Cummer. I'm not 100% sure how much land there is that's marked for intensification there, that's really outside the Finch and/or Steeles radii. Definitely some, but enough to justify $500M (which is crazy, but that's what they say a station costs)?
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
13,559
Reaction score
24,512
Location
Toronto/EY
As you can kind of see, that row of houses south of the country club and north of the pond and Bridle Path-style, $5M+ houses, up on a hill. I dunno what you can build down below that...

Nothing. There's no meaningful space east of the Valley, unless you want to buy up and redevelop those homes themselves.

The area outside the floodplain is on the west side.

*****

But the course on the east side of Yonge has much more connected, closer real estate available.

But I imagine you'd see development pressure on this site first:

1616102545827.png


There's about 4ha/10 acres here that could be massively intensified.

1616102638248.png
 

ARG1

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
2,940
Location
North Toronto
It would be strange to aim for densities, and then drop either Cummer of Clark.

Once the subway opens, frequent bus service along that stretch of Yonge will end. From Finch to Steeles, it is almost 2 km. What are the residents of all towers in between supposed to do, if there is no Cummer station? Walk for 1 km? Not a big deal for those in good health and during good weather, but that doesn't cover all people and all situations. Or, should they wait for bus 97, which comes once in 15 min at best?

Steeles to Hwy 7, that's an even longer stretch, although it has much less towers and the density is uneven.

In the LRT discussions, a 800 m stop spacing was considered problematic because of the walking distances, but here, 2+ km seems to be OK ..
Tbh though, 800m stop spacing spacing for LRT is like perfect, in fact I'd argue it could be more like 1km. The thing with Cummer is that You could still have the cummer bus which could travel frequently to Finch and/or Steeles, its not like this subway extension is killing all of the busses. In fact most of the busses travelling along Yonge already skip all of the stops between Steeles and Finch. Ideally all 3 stations get built, not just one, but I don't think that we should be aiming to remove all busses or something like that. We should still have a frequent Yonge bus running up and down the street.
 

salsa

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
8,785
Reaction score
9,557
Location
North York
The IBC makes the case (I don't have it in front of me) that when you draw the radius around Steeles and around Finch, there aren't very many people around Cummer who won't be able to walk to one of the other stations. In a perfect world, i'd like to see it there but if we're cutting stations, Cummer and Royal Orchard (which, let's not forget, was already cut and then semi-revived) are the obvious targets, IMHO.
I'm baffled with all the skepticism of Cummer station. North York Centre station has been immensely successful despite being similarly close to other stations, and it's not even connected to any bus routes. In fact it outperfroms a number of popluar stations such as Yorkdale, Lawrence, Osgoode, VMC, and Wellesley (source). To not construct a station here would be a mistake.
 
Last edited:

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
13,559
Reaction score
24,512
Location
Toronto/EY
Speaking of redeveloping the green spaces .. one can maintain that Golf Courses take lots of space and serve relatively few people, and therefore should be moved away from the prime land near major transit lines.

But, wouldn't you want to convert them to public parks, instead of just build condos? All those new residents need green space, too ..

Certainly the floodplain/valley land should be kept for nature.

In terms of tableland parks as a recreation amenity, I would suppose that depends on how well the neighbourhood is served now. If its in the top quintile of park land provision, I think one could fairly look at developing a lot of the tableland.

If its in the bottom quintile, then clearly a large chunk of any table land should become a park.

In terms of ecological function of the tableland, the golf courses don't provide much, certainly development would impinge on permeability, but mandatory green roofs and careful land-use policies could mitigate that to some degree.

From a wildlife habitat perspective, naturalizing the floodplain would more than offset some losses in the tableland.
 

ARG1

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
2,940
Location
North Toronto
I'm baffled with all the skepticism of Cummer station. North York Centre station has been immensely successful despite being similarly close to other stations, and it's not even connected to any bus routes. In fact it outperfroms a number of popluar stations such as Yorkdale, Lawrence, Osgoode, VMC, and Wellesley (source). To not construct a station here would be a mistake.
I don't think the skepticism comes from Cummer failing necesserily, as I outlined in my initial overview above, I think Cummer is a fantastic location for a station, I think its mostly just a case of it can live without it. For context, the concourse of Finch Station reaches all the way beyond Bishop Avenue as seen in this picture:
This means that its only a 500m walk from Cummer to the station and if that's a problem, Cummer has a pretty frequent bus service and it wouldn't take long to divert traffic to Steeles.

All of this is to say that its not that Cummer is a bad location for a station, but that Clark makes more sense and would better serve its surrounding communities. Without Clark or Royal Orchard, the segment between RHC/Bridge Centre is over 5km which would make this entire segment inaccessible to the neighbourhoods its running under, and would require a ton of supplemental bus service to cover them, perhaps YRT would need to keep Viva Blue running south to Steeles instead of just cutting back the entire route to RHC like they were hoping to do. Its not a question of if the station will work, its a question of which area needs the station more.
 

aquateam

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
887
Reaction score
828
Speaking of redeveloping the green spaces .. one can maintain that Golf Courses take lots of space and serve relatively few people, and therefore should be moved away from the prime land near major transit lines.

But, wouldn't you want to convert them to public parks, instead of just build condos? All those new residents need green space, too ..

I'm sure a lot of people would be very happy if the city stopped subsidizing golf courses and turned that into parkland. Not our Mayor, though.

Specifically I'd like to see Earl Bayes park extended to York Mills station through what is currently the Don Valley Golf Course. Jennifer Keesmat proposed converting this golf course to parkland during her mayoral run.

1616106691970.png


Maybe earmark at least some of that for development? Like where the clubhouse currently is. Something to enlarge the tax base and build ridership for the nearby stations.


With regards to Cummer station, I think it's a little ridiculous that we have stations every ~600 meters on Eglinton where everything is low-rise, but then we are proposing 2000 meters between Finch/Steeles where we have so much density planned/under construction.

I feel like the province is deliberately selling the version with fewer stations so that they can get developers/municipalities/the federal government to cough up the money for the "missing" stations.
 
Last edited:

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
19,757
Reaction score
9,059
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
I'm sure a lot of people would be very happy if the city stopped subsidizing golf courses and turned that into parkland. Not our Mayor, though.

Specifically I'd like to see Earl Bayes park extended to York Mills station through what is currently the Don Valley Golf Course. Jennifer Keesmat proposed converting this golf course to parkland during her mayoral run.

View attachment 306605

Maybe earmark at least some of that for development? Like where the clubhouse currently is. Something to enlarge the tax base and build ridership for the nearby stations.


With regards to Cummer station, I think it's a little ridiculous that we have stations every ~600 meters on Eglinton where everything is low-rise, but then we are proposing 2000 meters between Finch/Steeles where we have so much density planned/under construction.

I feel like the province is deliberately selling the version with fewer stations so that they can get developers/municipalities/the federal government to cough up the money for the "missing" stations.
You do know that the two or three story buildings along Eglinton Avenue are higher than the 905's single-story buildings with their parking lots out front? Eglinton also has SEVERAL high-rise developments going along right now (see map at link). Expect to see the existing parking lots to be redeveloped near any of the suburban stations.
 

aquateam

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
887
Reaction score
828
You do know that the two or three story buildings along Eglinton Avenue are higher than the 905's single-story buildings with their parking lots out front? Eglinton also has SEVERAL high-rise developments going along right now (see map at link). Expect to see the existing parking lots to be redeveloped near any of the suburban stations.

I'm not clear what point you're making. Yonge/Cummer is still in Toronto, south of Steeles and the "905." I was just arguing that a station at Yonge/Cummer has much more walk-in ridership potential than many (if not most) Eglinton LRT stations, so it would be a mistake to leave it out as an infill station as a cost-cutting exercise.

Thanks for the map. It kind of proves my point though. There is more development planned around Yonge/Cummer (which doesn't have any transit station even funded yet) than around many of the Eglinton LRT stations (where the line has been under construction for many years now and is due to open next year.)

E.g. in the ~450m catchment area of Yonge/Cummer I see:
  • 44, 37, 37, 34 stories - 5800 Yonge
  • 32 stories - 5840 Yonge
  • 36 stories - 5915 Yonge
  • 46 stories - 5959 Yonge
  • 40 stories - 5995 Yonge
  • 20 stories - 6080 Yonge
This is an area that already has a fair number of apartment buildings.

Compare this to:
  • Cedarvale - no development planned
  • Chaplin - one 7 story building
  • Oakwood - one 6 story building and one 16 story building
  • Keelesdale - one 14 story building
  • Black Creek - one community centre
None of those underground stations were left out despite lower ridership potential, being built at a comparable cost.
 

Top