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TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Funded/Planned)

lead82

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Nothing dumb about it. This is the reality of the current folks who live there and the current geography. This subway will be mostly used for commuting to NYCC/Midtown and Downtown.

Willowdale is different because it’s on a growth node and not a heritage district.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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This subway is really for Toronto to shorten commutes for those bus riders coming down Drewry/Cummer and Steele’s. After that, Clark station is more than sufficient to serve all of Thornhill centre (May even call it that). Then onto Langstaff and Richmond Hill where there are huge parcels of land up for redevelopment.

I think a lot of this is true but it's also a worst case scenario. There is more redevelopment potential around Clark than Royal Orchard. A discussion of the pros and cons of heritage districts that front onto main streets is a can of worms but as someone who values the heritage in the area, I don't think it's entirely a bad thing.

It's true the district is kind of sterile - there's more small business than retail - but then a new restaurant there is one of the hottest in the city, making Toronto Life's best new resto list. Things do change.

And the district is not that big and there already mid and high rise buildings by Clark. The NIMBY crowd can fight it but solid condos from Arnold to Steeles is inevitable. There are also plans to run a Viva route along Clark so today's bus service is a red herring.

So there will by challenges there but if the UGC develops as hoped, it will make anything else north of Finch a pure bonus.
 

robmausser

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Oh dear Lord, the same dumb thinking mentality that cost all future generations that'll live near Willowdale and Sheppard direct subway access is rearing its ugly head in Thornhill too? :rolleyes:

Dont forget the two stops on the Yonge Line extension north of Eglinton in the 70's.

Two stations were planned, one between Eglinton and Lawerence and one between Lawerence and York Mills (around Yonge Blvd), and were canned for this very same reason.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Went digging through the Conceptual Design Report which, as far as I know, is the most up-to-date planning document. Not hard to find the ridership projections...
Re: Royal Orchard:
"As shown in Table 2-1, the MADITUC model projected 340 passengers boarding and alighting at Royal Orchard Station during the morning peak hour in 2031, making it the least busy of the six proposed stations on the YSE. In comparison, current morning peak hour ridership at Bessarion Station – the least used station on the entire TTC subway system – is approximately 540....
Approximately 55% of the developable land located within 500m of the proposed Royal Orchard station is situated within the Vaughan Thornhill Heritage Conservation District (VTHCD)... In addition, the relatively shallow lots on the Vaughan side with the well-established Uplands community behind it and the existing high density on the Markham side, further limit the redevelopment opportunities surrounding the Royal Orchard station. Within the 500m surrounding the proposed station, approximately 70% of the 2031 projected development is already present.
The projected ridership volumes are too low to justify the capital and operating expenses associated with a subway station."



I'm curious what they think has changed here...
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TJ O'Pootertoot

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I believe an updated document is suppose to go to Toronto City and York Region Councils in Q4 2019.

This is correct.
This report was supposed to update the DRL as well so who knows if it will still be on schedule and/or what it will say at this point, however.
 
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TJ O'Pootertoot

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Ah, if you page down to Page 117 in this Markham Council Report, you can see what's going on with Royal Orchard. They commissioned a planning study that found the station can actually be justified. I remain skeptical but if they can achieve that level of density there, more power to em.
(It's also interesting the variables with the Ladies Golf Course. As I mentioned, they sold off some land for development closer to Bayview but I thought most of the land closer to Yonge was in the floodplain. I guess some of it is ready to sell and build on when they're ready...)
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WislaHD

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Ah, if you page down to Page 117 in this Markham Council Report, you can see what's going on with Royal Orchard. They commissioned a planning study that found the station can actually be justified. I remain skeptical but if they can achieve that level of density there, more power to em.
(It's also interesting the variables with the Ladies Golf Course. As I mentioned, they sold off some land for development closer to Bayview but I thought most of the land closer to Yonge was in the floodplain. I guess some of it is ready to sell and build on when they're ready...)
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Woah. That is like, very dense population projections.

How do they want to achieve that?
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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The Growth Plan requires them to achieve 200 people and jobs within 500m (800m, once Doug Ford's Amendment is passed) so they "have to" do that, one way or another and prove they can do it, if they want this station. As I said off the top, the presence of the valley an the Uplands neighbourhood seemed to offer limited potential, but their pitch is they can do it.

These images are a 800m and a 500m radius around the intersection. You can easily see how much of it is golf course and/or stable residential...
The Ladies Golf Course (on the east side of Yonge) can be redeveloped somewhat, particularly in those areas adjacent to the neighbourhood. But the west side is much more of a valley. I dunno but I'm sincerely curious to see where this goes.

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lead82

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If you look at the radius, you realize that the Langstaff stop is just north of the 800m radius, so the south part of Langstaff can cover almost half of the same territory that Royal York would cover. I don't see the need to have both Langstaff and Royal York. While there is some redevelopment potential along Yonge, most of the residential neighborhood will not change any time soon. This area is not considered a growth node, so the official plan doesn't recommend much if any intensification. All of that is saved for Langstaff Gateway and RHC.

My bet is that if this gets built, Royal Orchard station will not be part of it.
 

BurlOak

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If you look at the radius, you realize that the Langstaff stop is just north of the 800m radius, so the south part of Langstaff can cover almost half of the same territory that Royal York would cover. I don't see the need to have both Langstaff and Royal York. While there is some redevelopment potential along Yonge, most of the residential neighborhood will not change any time soon. This area is not considered a growth node, so the official plan doesn't recommend much if any intensification. All of that is saved for Langstaff Gateway and RHC.

My bet is that if this gets built, Royal Orchard station will not be part of it.
Is John/Centre a better location for a station than Royal ORCHARD.
 

Hopkins123

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Is John/Centre a better location for a station than Royal ORCHARD.

It's bizarre they wouldn't even consider placing a stop there, it's a concession road for pete's sake. Even if it draws Bessarion levels of daily foot traffic, it still does away with the need for a parallel bus service on Yonge south of Richmond Hill Centre entirely if 800m station spacing is upheld.
 

Leo_Chan

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It's bizarre they wouldn't even consider placing a stop there, it's a concession road for pete's sake. Even if it draws Bessarion levels of daily foot traffic, it still does away with the need for a parallel bus service on Yonge south of Richmond Hill Centre entirely if 800m station spacing is upheld.
It’s like not putting a stop at Jane on Viva Orange, oh wait...
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Is John/Centre a better location for a station than Royal ORCHARD.

I don't think so, no. It basically has the same greenspace/valley constraints that Royal Orchard does AND it's the heart of the heritage district, which is a major restriction on development. You'll never get more than 6 stories, anywhere on Yonge. The advantage is that Centre is a collector road but it dead ends at Yonge anyway and does not really funnel thru-traffic on John, as if they're the same road. There's nothing, in terms of function, that Clark can't do just as well. (Clark is a 50 km/h 4-lane, Centre is a 40km/h 2 lane with stop signs etc.).

Yes, Royal Orchard is not a growth node BUT there is a catch 22; if there is a subway station, it has to hit 200 people/jobs per hectare, per the Growth Plan. So, if the region wants to argue a station should go there, that's the number they have to prove is viable. It's also incorrect that all the intensification is funnelled to the Urban Growth Centre. Both Markham and Vaughan have passed Secondary Plans to facilitate intensification along the entire corridor. I don't have the maps in front of me (easy to find, though) but the Markham report cited above is based on tweaking the density figures already in place; and those existing density allowances are greater than what is there now.

Interestingly, the Region recently put out a report delineating the MTSAs for all the Viva stops and subway stations and Royal Orchard was NOT on the list. Maybe later I can find and post the relevant maps, as they're kind of interesting.

In the meantime, I remain skeptical it makes sense but if they can demonstrate it, more intensification along Yonge is a good thing, in the big picture.
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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I still had the file open so these are the MTSA maps for each station; the red line basically shows where intensification can/should go. Or, phrased better (since there are already apartment buildings etc. in some of these areas), it is within this boundary that the overall density target must be achieved. Note that the Langstaff boundary is at Helen, which is just 2.5 blocks from Royal Orchard. And, at least on the Markham side of Yonge, the Clark boundary is just one block south of John St.

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