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TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Funded/Planned)

MisterF

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It's high time subway construction got ahead of the curve. I can never understand why people complain about building subways to 'nowehere'. I say subways should always be built to nowhere.
I can never understand this desire to "get ahead of the curve" with subways, especially when it's at the expense of existing dense areas that have needed subway lines for decades. To take your thinking to its logical conclusion, the Yonge and Bloor lines should never have been built, and the DRL should never be built despite the fact that its ridership would rival the Bloor line from day 1. Instead, we should be building subway lines to Oshawa and Newmarket to "get ahead of the curve".

Subways should be built, first and foremost in the dense environments that need them, not nowheresville suburbia. Let regional rail worry about the outer suburbs.
 

kEiThZ

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I can never understand this desire to "get ahead of the curve" with subways, especially when it's at the expense of existing dense areas that have needed subway lines for decades. To take your thinking to its logical conclusion, the Yonge and Bloor lines should never have been built, and the DRL should never be built despite the fact that its ridership would rival the Bloor line from day 1. Instead, we should be building subway lines to Oshawa and Newmarket to "get ahead of the curve".

Subways should be built, first and foremost in the dense environments that need them, not nowheresville suburbia. Let regional rail worry about the outer suburbs.

Ideally, transit and urban development would go hand in hand. Should we address areas that have the existing densities to support LRT or subways, first? Absolutely.

But does that mean, we should turn down opportunities to build dense neighbourhoods from scratch when the chance arises? I think not. Here we have a unique opportunity to ensure that new development meets density standards necessary to support a subway. By your rationale, we should not support it. Instead we should send regional rail out there, wait 30 years, then build a subway, and then re-develop the area to the density we will get with building the subway in the first place.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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OK, do you seriously think it would be wise or feasible or anything else for a Bayview bus or for a Yonge bus to divert to Downsview, of all places, especially in rush hour traffic? Especially when a substantial proportion of the Yonge riders, the heaviest route, are getting on the bus between 3 and 6 km or so from Finch? Why on Earth would you reroute a bus in a way that caused noone to take it anymore?


BTW,... you do realize that in York Region's proposal for the Yonge Subway extension,... they mention that all bus routes in York Region between the Yonge subway extension and Spadina subway extension will get rerouted to the Spadina subway extension. This is clearly stated in their www.vivanext.com site and the TTC's Dec 17th Yonge Subway extension presentation.

Thus if you live at Bathurst and Hwy 7,... or even just west of Yonge and Hwy 7,.... you're going way out to Jane Street and Hwy 7 to board the Spadina Subway extension.
 

Disparishun

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Thus if you live at Bathurst and Hwy 7,... or even just west of Yonge and Hwy 7,.... you're going way out to Jane Street and Hwy 7 to board the Spadina Subway extension.

Oh, I see. You're talking about east-west buses, and people who choose to board east-west routes that pass by areas like Bathurst and 7 and Yonge and 7. You might even be talking about the east-west routes that will exist once -- well, really, if -- the Yonge extension is built. Yep, east-west buses head west. (And east.)

BTW,... you do realize that in York Region's proposal for the Yonge Subway extension,... they mention that all bus routes in York Region between the Yonge subway extension and Spadina subway extension will get rerouted to the Spadina subway extension. This is clearly stated in their www.vivanext.com site and the TTC's Dec 17th Yonge Subway extension presentation.

I honestly do not know what you are talking about and what it has to do with routing currently-existing north-south Yonge and Bayview buses to Downsview subway. But here is the TTC's Dec 17th Yonge Subway extension presentation. There are 59 slides there. Which one(s) are you talking about?
 

TJ O'Pootertoot

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Keith is being the voice of sanity here. York Region and the province have mandated that dense development is the new norm in the burbs and making those communities "transit-oriented" is the key to making them work and keeping cars off roads in the burbs and downtown. A dense development that doesn't have rapid transit from day one will fail. The desire to get "ahead of the curve" is a crucial concept of modern transit planning since failing to do so has created the car culture which is now collapsing.
People bitch about how everyone in the burbs drives and people shop in big box stores. Well, that's because they never had a subway (or rapid transit). It's not a chicken/egg argument anymore.

MisterF - if you think that Highway 7 is "nowhereseville" or an "outer suburb" you need to leave downtown more often. As myself and others have said, there is virtually nothing that changes as you cross Steeles aside from the government - especially on Yonge.
Newmarket may be an outer suburb but Thornhill hasn't met that definition since Mel Lastman was elected mayor. Of North York.

As for serving downtown first, Transit City is Toronto's "answer" for that and it does not involve a DRL or any other subway so while this board seems just about unanimous in agreeing a DRL is needed, the mucky mucks disagree. To me, that's a like a guy who lies in court. How can the jury trust anything he says and why should I believe the TTC is being honest and fair in their criticisms of the Yonge extension when they've already demonstrated an irrational antipathy towards sane, high-order transit planning?

And Sunny's arguments are getting further unhinged. Are you actually suggesting it will be impossible to take transit between Bathurst and Yonge streets? Are you unaware of the rapid transit - the Hwy 7 AND 407 Transitways - which will make it very easy (obviously!) to take E/W rapid transit in York Region?The Vivanext plan merely ensures that those bus routes which now avoid Hwy 7 dip down or up to hook up with the Spadina subway. Yonge/7 is already a transit hub and it will get a lot bigger.

Disparishun caught your logical booboo about routes going East AND West. If they didn't we'd run out of buses quickly.
 
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taal

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My god these arguments are so tiresome and pointless.

We have these every so often and they go on forever.

Listen up ... if there are 416 folks that don't give a cr*p about anything North of Steeles, how about you don't bother posting on these threads. Not the entire forum, just these threads ... it'll make you feel better either way trust me :)

Let's not have endless debates about if the density calls for it or not - let's assume from this point on that it does and how can we make it work best for the entire GTA.
 

hkric88

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from 416ers to 905ers: as a '416'er, I am not necessarily opposed to the extension, in theory. But please, responding to the last comment especially, remember that the TTC is ours. The subway is ours. And we have every right to be deeply concerned here. Toronto should come first in the consideration of this extension because practically all of the negative side-effects of this extension will occur in Toronto, while all the benefits are going to be 905. Us 416ers currently do, and will continue to pay for the operating deficit of the system, and even if York pays for their share of the operating expenses, still the expenses incurred by added stress on the system because of the extension will be payed for by us. We have alot to loose with this thing, including but not limited to a chance for a seat. I think that is why some of us are upset. I want york to have the chance to create some great growth centers and urbanity possible only with a subway network, I do, but there has to be something to compensate for the trouble it's going to cause south of steels, like the DRL, for example.
 

taal

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You do realize that the TTC along with the City could have pushed for the DRL to start ... they are the ones who didn't!

Regarding the above ... it'd would be that surprising to me if they really wanted the DRL and asked around but politically they were told it was a no go in the first round. It may have happened but Toronto and it's Mayor haven't really ever backed down from something it wanted so i really doubt the above.

In other words we should be blaming out city for this.

Now if a DRL is needed for the Yonge extension to work ... that's another story. The TTC said it would need to consider all alternatives to make sure the Yonge line could accommodate the future growth. In other words a DRL / Sheppard extension are on the table.

But, it's the cities fault that you didn't get the DRL to start anyway.
 

sunnyraytoronto

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Originally Posted by sunnyraytoronto
BTW,... you do realize that in York Region's proposal for the Yonge Subway extension,... they mention that all bus routes in York Region between the Yonge subway extension and Spadina subway extension will get rerouted to the Spadina subway extension. This is clearly stated in their www.vivanext.com site and the TTC's Dec 17th Yonge Subway extension presentation.

I honestly do not know what you are talking about and what it has to do with routing currently-existing north-south Yonge and Bayview buses to Downsview subway. But here is the TTC's Dec 17th Yonge Subway extension presentation. There are 59 slides there. Which one(s) are you talking about?

Mentioned on every slide from 23-28

Slide 23:
Effect of Spadina Subway Extension
-8.6 km extension to Vaughan Corporate Centre/Highway 7
-2,300 peak period Yonge Subway riders moved to Spadina line
-Opens before Yonge extension
-Connections include:
--Barrie GO line (Sheppard West Station)
--Finch LRT (Finch West Station)
--Jane LRT (Steeles West Station)
--Highway 407 Transitway (407 Station)
--VIVA/YRT (Vaughan Corporate Centre)
-Will help “dilute†the ridership on Yonge Subway for people from north/west destined downtown
 

Ansem

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from 416ers to 905ers: as a '416'er, I am not necessarily opposed to the extension, in theory. But please, responding to the last comment especially, remember that the TTC is ours. The subway is ours. And we have every right to be deeply concerned here. Toronto should come first in the consideration of this extension because practically all of the negative side-effects of this extension will occur in Toronto, while all the benefits are going to be 905. Us 416ers currently do, and will continue to pay for the operating deficit of the system, and even if York pays for their share of the operating expenses, still the expenses incurred by added stress on the system because of the extension will be payed for by us. We have alot to loose with this thing, including but not limited to a chance for a seat. I think that is why some of us are upset. I want york to have the chance to create some great growth centers and urbanity possible only with a subway network, I do, but there has to be something to compensate for the trouble it's going to cause south of steels, like the DRL, for example.

Exactly what I've been saying.

905ers says Torontonians dont care about what's north of Steeles but it seems to work in reverse as well.

We are not against the extension. We feel that DRL should be the #1 priority.

#2 Should be Eglington and Sheppard

#3 Should be York.

Without a COMPLETE subway system, the York extension will mess up the Yonge line and Torontonians will be penalized.

As a short term solution, we could improved the Go Train as a direct link to downtown.

or

We could explore what Paris did with the RER system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER
which is much more efficient than having subways leaving the city.

And about the montreal example, river or no river, the result will be exactly the same. Like the orange line, the yonge line will be
-overcrowded
-Torontonians will complain about poor service
-effort to increase capacity will have little effect unless they built the DRL.
 
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TJ O'Pootertoot

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Mentioned on every slide from 23-28

Slide 23:
Effect of Spadina Subway Extension
-8.6 km extension to Vaughan Corporate Centre/Highway 7
-2,300 peak period Yonge Subway riders moved to Spadina line
-Opens before Yonge extension
-Connections include:
--Barrie GO line (Sheppard West Station)
--Finch LRT (Finch West Station)
--Jane LRT (Steeles West Station)
--Highway 407 Transitway (407 Station)
--VIVA/YRT (Vaughan Corporate Centre)
-Will help “dilute†the ridership on Yonge Subway for people from north/west destined downtown

You still don't get it. Having two subway lines with strong e/w connections gives people the option of taking either line instead of dumping them all on the Yonge line, which is now the easiest to get to for YR residents. If you want to go downtown you get to Yonge Street and Finch Station.

When the Spadina line opens, it will take a lot of the people now coming from west of Yonge but it is NOT avoiding Yonge, merely providing part of a more complete network. IT opens before the Yonge extension, making it easier to entrench that pattern.

If you still don't get it, imagine you live at Bathurst/Sheppard. You can go either to Downsview or Sheppard, right? Before Dview opened, if you wanted to go downtown you would HAVE to go to Yonge, right? But that doesn't mean they shut down bus transit between the two stations or somehow isolate Downsview to coerce people.

And to add to what Taal rightly said, the TTC didn't make DRL a priority before and not now either. It was not one of the pre-conditions Toronto attached to approving the Yonge extension meaning the debate about its necessity is taking place HERE and not at TTC or Metrolinx. Hmmmm.
 

Ansem

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You still don't get it. Having two subway lines with strong e/w connections gives people the option of taking either line instead of dumping them all on the Yonge line, which is now the easiest to get to for YR residents. If you want to go downtown you get to Yonge Street and Finch Station.

When the Spadina line opens, it will take a lot of the people now coming from west of Yonge but it is NOT avoiding Yonge, merely providing part of a more complete network. IT opens before the Yonge extension, making it easier to entrench that pattern.

If you still don't get it, imagine you live at Bathurst/Sheppard. You can go either to Downsview or Sheppard, right? Before Dview opened, if you wanted to go downtown you would HAVE to go to Yonge, right? But that doesn't mean they shut down bus transit between the two stations or somehow isolate Downsview to coerce people.

And to add to what Taal rightly said, the TTC didn't make DRL a priority before and not now either. It was not one of the pre-conditions Toronto attached to approving the Yonge extension meaning the debate about its necessity is taking place HERE and not at TTC or Metrolinx. Hmmmm.

good point with the bus example.

The York bus just won't skip station. They'll use the first station on the Route.

It's like the 84 Bus on Sheppard West or 196 Rocket
They both go to Downsview first then Sheppard station last.

Anyone getting to downtown get's of at (you guessed it) Downview first.

Since I work at Sheppard-Yonge, the only one staying on the bus are getting off before Sheppard, at Bathurst street or going on the Yonge Line but not downtown.

My point is no one going let's say to king station will skip downview to go to Sheppard, They'll get off at downview because its faster.

Same thing in the York region. Any buses going westbound and going to both stations will leave their passengers on the Yonge line.
 

Disparishun

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Originally Posted by sunnyraytoronto
BTW,... you do realize that in York Region's proposal for the Yonge Subway extension,... they mention that all bus routes in York Region between the Yonge subway extension and Spadina subway extension will get rerouted to the Spadina subway extension.
(...)
Slide 23:
Effect of Spadina Subway Extension
(...)
-Connections include:
--Barrie GO line (Sheppard West Station)
--Finch LRT (Finch West Station)
--Jane LRT (Steeles West Station)
--Highway 407 Transitway (407 Station)
--VIVA/YRT (Vaughan Corporate Centre)
-Will help “dilute†the ridership on Yonge Subway for people from north/west destined downtown

Oh. So you were still talking about east-west routes. Before you were talking about routing currently-existing north-south Yonge and Bayview buses to Downsview subway. I am going to guess that what you are saying is that you agree that that would be silly. And, yes, I agree with you that it is good if existing and new east-west buses connect with major transit nodes in doing so. We can all get behind that. (To mangle the classic William Shatner/Henry Rollins track. :D)
 

Disparishun

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from 416ers to 905ers: as a '416'er, I am not necessarily opposed to the extension, in theory. But please, responding to the last comment especially, remember that the TTC is ours. The subway is ours. And we have every right to be deeply concerned here. Toronto should come first in the consideration of this extension because practically all of the negative side-effects of this extension will occur in Toronto, while all the benefits are going to be 905.

If you are saying that a DRL is needed then, yeah, for sure. And if you are saying that we need to stop taking cars off the road and leave those clogged until the subway can handle all that pressure -- well, maybe; I'm dubious, but I confess I do not have a strong position on that.

But I don't really understand the 416/905 distinction you are making. Are you saying that extension to Steeles is fine and won't clog, but extension to 7 will be a sardine-can disaster? Just that every incremental step makes things worse and we should expand nothing north until there is a DRL in service?

For the record, and as someone who actually lives in the place you're talking apart and does the commute you're talking about every single day, I would be quite surprised if the Yonge extension results in a whole mess of new people commuting down to Union. It's a long trip; even the anemic and meandering RH GO line may have some travel time advantages here. Rather, I think the bulk of those rides are going to be terminating much sooner. At existing and by-then-larger hubs like the government and other office buildings around Finch and in downtown North York; at Eglinton; and along the Bloor line, in particular. At Steeles, too, if the fully dysfunctional morass that results from its border status, and endless waiting-for-the-subway-ism that keeps used car lots on the stretch between Steeles and the CN tracks, ever gives way to municipal planners resolving to work together better and turn Yonge-Steeles (already adjacent to the getting-ever-denser Bathurst-Steeles area, and we'll see where we're at by 2016) into the hub that it really needs to become.

On which point, in response to Ansem:

And about the montreal example, river or no river, the result will be exactly the same. Like the orange line, the yonge line will be
-overcrowded
-Torontonians will complain about poor service
-effort to increase capacity will have little effect unless they built the DRL.

No, the river, and the fact that Montreal-Laval are non-contiguous and non-integrated urban units whereas Willowdale-Thornhill are the opposite, really does matter. It matters in two ways: first, the new opportunity to avoid driving across the bridge attracts a lot of riders; here, there is no bridge. Second, the absence of a continuous urban area means that the metro is unlikely to be used for relatively localized travel; here, that's not quite how it works.

But maybe we can learn something from what you say is a disaster in Laval and Montreal. If the Laval metro is fully loaded with people paying the extra fare and commuting all the way downtown daily -- why aren't those people taking AMT trains? Are AMT trains significantly more expensive? Do most STL buses load metros and not AMT stations (I believe so)? Looking at the AMT map, it seems as though any Laval AMT stations swing around to Montreal West before snaking their way back via Vendôme to Lucien-L'Allier; does that make for a slow, slow trip?

That said, where I am really headed is the following: didn't all this come up with the TTC in old Metro Toronto? How was it handled then? Did the TTC migrate from being administered frmo the City of Toronto to Metro Toronto -- and how, and why? That historical episode seems to be really similar to what's at the heart of a lot of the debate about the Yonge extension, and it would be interesting to know why.
 

Ansem

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No, the river, and the fact that Montreal-Laval are non-contiguous and non-integrated urban units whereas Willowdale-Thornhill are the opposite, really does matter. It matters in two ways: first, the new opportunity to avoid driving across the bridge attracts a lot of riders; here, there is no bridge. Second, the absence of a continuous urban area means that the metro is unlikely to be used for relatively localized travel; here, that's not quite how it works.

I see your point and I don't deny that but that doesn't mean that The TTC is not underestimating how much more customers they'll get. And that certainly does not guarantee that the Yonge line won't get overloaded.
I guess it's a matter of who will have the most accurate prediction.

a)Those who planned this are right and with the **minor**modifications, the Yonge line will be just fine.

b)They'll get much more than they bargained for and make Torontonians using the Yonge line unhappy customers and their transit experience very painful.

But maybe we can learn something from what you say is a disaster in Laval and Montreal. If the Laval metro is fully loaded with people paying the extra fare and commuting all the way downtown daily -- why aren't those people taking AMT trains?

Because the AMT trains have horrible schedule.
Only 2 lines have service off-peak...every 3 or 4 hours. The others...no service off peak and weekends.

The AMT train's popularity is very new and the lines are full.

In Quebec, gas price are much higher than in Ontario. There a special tax for public transit.

When the prices went out of control, people abandonned their car and took the train instead. The network wasn't made to accomodate all those new customers. So they started expending the network and opening new station but they should have done this years ago.

They don't have enough train and using CN tracks makes it even harder.
They started to buy some track so only AMT trains can use them eliminating the grand detour to Montreal West.

Those who live beyond Laval or Longueuil(yellow line) use it.

By the way...you pay extra fare if you don't have a monthly pass. Everything is included in the pass


Are AMT trains significantly more expensive?

Nope. with 109$, people from Laval or Longueuil can use the Tram Zone 3 Smart card. You can use Laval-Montreal-Longueuil-AMT train networks and its unlimited in a month.


Do most STL buses load metros and not AMT stations (I believe so)? Looking at the AMT map, it seems as though any Laval AMT stations swing around to Montreal West before snaking their way back via Vendôme to Lucien-L'Allier; does that make for a slow, slow trip?

The Laval STL bus service is the best in the province. Reliable and fast. The city have multiple express buses running on a lot of reserved lanes for buses.
All major boulevards have one.
The bus took you to Henri-Bourassa or Cote-Vertu Station in less than 25 minutes from anywhere on the Island of Laval.

Those stations had mega bus terminal to accomodate all the Laval Bus routes and they even had their own Garage there.

So you didn't need the train when every 5 minutes, you have an express bus taking you to the subway. They had reserved lane on the bridges as well.



That said, where I am really headed is the following: didn't all this come up with the TTC in old Metro Toronto? How was it handled then? Did the TTC migrate from being administered frmo the City of Toronto to Metro Toronto -- and how, and why? That historical episode seems to be really similar to what's at the heart of a lot of the debate about the Yonge extension, and it would be interesting to know why.

The way I see it, its purely political. The mayor of Montreal was extremely against it and wanted the blue line expension to the east instead. Big density...no subway...like Scarborough.

Laval always voted liberal. The PQ which are separatist, promised the subway to laval just to get their votes. It was supposed to be 300 millions for 3 station...It cost over 1 billions....aahhh memories.

Funniest things is ....They still vote Liberal.

I guess the York extension is for the same reason...905 votes.

In politics we learn the #1 objective of any political party is to get power and stay in power.

If they had any reason to think Toronto would massively vote conservative, The DRL and Sheppard would be in progress as we speak.
 
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