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TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

CDL.TO

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An additional constraint that makes it hard to apply a uniform spacing is that stops should optimally be placed at intersections with traffic signals or crosswalks (as is currently usually the case). There are cases where it might seem logical to replace two existing stops with a new one in between, but if the two existing stops are at traffic signals and the one in between is not, then the result could actually be more stopping (i.e. at the two red lights and at the stop in between).

I wasn't suggesting to do it without thinking. "Optimal spacing" isn't a hard number, it's an average that you aim for.

That said, there are clearly a number of locations where traffic signals and crosswalks are located there BECAUSE that's where the streetcar stop is. When this is the case it could be worth relocating the lights and crosswalks if that could permit better spacing.
 

nfitz

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I totally agree with your general point, but that one does kinda make sense -- westbound Victoria is well-used by people escaping to the subway when traffic is moving slowly towards Yonge.
Agreed. When it's busy, the streetcar would typically have to sit at Victoria anyway - might as well open the doors - and it's often quicker to walk to to King station (or Queen on 501 where they do the same thing), than it is to stay there. This then speeds up boarding at King (or Queen). Stops I believe are unnecesary on the westbound 504 from Broadview to Yonge are Simpson (and possibly Millbrook), Mount Stephen, and Trinity.
 

car4041

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I wasn't suggesting to do it without thinking. "Optimal spacing" isn't a hard number, it's an average that you aim for.

Sure, but when I (being a geek) have sat down and tried to rationalize the stop spacing, I've found it to be a lot harder than I expected, and this issue came up a lot (but I wasn't giving myself the option of relocating lights and crosswalks, which would of course make it easier, though I'm not sure if we can really hope for this to happen).
 

nfitz

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... but I wasn't giving myself the option of relocating lights and crosswalks
Lights, probably not. Crosswalks however have tended to appear over the years at the locations where the stops are. It's not inconceivable that some crosswalks could be moved.
 

smallspy

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I wasn't suggesting to do it without thinking. "Optimal spacing" isn't a hard number, it's an average that you aim for.

So, do you make it the "optimal spacing" an average that is best suited for suburban locales, where the stop spacing is already further apart than downtown? Notwithstanding the obvious - that the built form of the City downtown (and near-downtown) requires a closer stop spacing.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

smallspy

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Sure. Lets study it. Let's have a policy rather than having nothing to point to whenever this topic comes up.

Except that with very few exceptions there is anything wrong with the current spacing scheme - a stop where it is necessary. Are there people standing there, or requesting to get off? If the answer is no, than keep on rolling by.

Contrary to what most of you think, the only way that doing a mass "reorganization" of stops is going to speed up routes is by completely pissing off riders and having them switch to their cars.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

CDL.TO

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Except that with very few exceptions there is anything wrong with the current spacing scheme - a stop where it is necessary. Are there people standing there, or requesting to get off? If the answer is no, than keep on rolling by.

Contrary to what most of you think, the only way that doing a mass "reorganization" of stops is going to speed up routes is by completely pissing off riders and having them switch to their cars.

Contrary to what you seem to think, there are plenty of systems who have studied this question (yes, with higher ridership than the TTC) and there is a wealth of research on the subject. This includes whether or not it will cause undue inconvenience to riders.

Who defines where "necessary" stops are? What is the criteria used? Truth is, there is no criteria.

Doing something such as, say, making the Queen stop spacing between University and Spadina the same as the College stop spacing on the same stretch will not send TTC passengers running to their cars.
 

scarberiankhatru

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Don't think I've posted in this thread yet....was the ROW worth it? The streetcar was already there and ~$100m is a very small sum to pay in an effort to improve the operation of the line and change some streetscaping along the way. We should be spending $100m on every arterial in the city to squeeze some cheap and effective improvements out of our existing transit system.

Bus stops in the suburbs basically are only at a) intersecting roads, b) schools, c) apartment buildings, d) occasionally there might be a plaza or factory far from an intersection. It's completely normal for any and all of these to be 100-200-300+ metres away from each other and nothing in betwen but a parking lot or a park or backyards. Downtown routes have far, far more intersecting roads and more street-facing buildings between roads so there's many more opportunities to put a stop. Downtown doesn't really "require" more stops than a suburban street, but since the downtown areas are less nodal and since pedestrian traffic is less funneled, you can get a finer grain of convenience by having more stops. If they added more stops to some suburban routes, no one but parkour enthusiasts hopping fences would use them. With the TTC's [mis]management of routes, the results on paper of removing stops may not materialize...they'll find a way to lose that time back again.
 

Palma

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Lights, probably not. Crosswalks however have tended to appear over the years at the locations where the stops are. It's not inconceivable that some crosswalks could be moved.

Removing crosswalks could be done but relocating them to somewhere in between 2 stops instead is difficult because of the ROW and where the crosswalks are presently. This should have been considered while the ROW was being constructed.
 

nfitz

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Removing crosswalks could be done but relocating them to somewhere in between 2 stops instead is difficult because of the ROW and where the crosswalks are presently. This should have been considered while the ROW was being constructed.
I wasn't thinking of locations where there was a ROW - the example that lead to this discussion was King and Victoria.
 

junctionist

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Both underpasses on St. Clair at Keele Street and at Scarlett/Dundas are no longer practical in terms of accommodating traffic and look to be in bad shape. Their replacement is welcome news.
 

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Interesting timing to rebuild the St.Clair West / Georgetown Corridor in the 10 years after installing the St.Clair Streetcar ROW and Air-Rail Link, and not during one of those projects. I guess this is one of those examples where you build something less than ideal to achieve an objective knowing that the problem that was glossed over would be re-prioritized and get its own budget to fix. If the Barrie corridor bridge gets replaced I wouldn't imaging that would happen until the Davenport Diamond Grade Separation project occurs, if that project restarts.
 

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