syn
Senior Member
Damn, why is Microsoft treating it's employees like 2nd class citizens?! 
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
ARG1
Senior Member
First, what StreetyMcCarface said.Damn, why is Microsoft treating it's employees like 2nd class citizens?!
Second, the newer sections of the Link are being built in a way more comparable to the Vancouver Skytrain, elevated guideways mostly separated from traffic. The big difference though is with the exception of the Tacoma line (which isn't even connected to the main line yet), there aren't any sections of the line where the train stops at a traffic light. The entire line travels on its own right of way, and whenever it does cross the road at grade, its always with flashing gates meaning that unless there is a car crash or some other incident, you will NEVER stop for any reason other than you're at a station. Same exact thing with the Capital line in Edmonton. If you can't comprehend the difference, then I can't help you.
drum118
Superstar
Move to the right thread
Look at the numbers for current routes, add 30% and you will see what the cost will be for a rider to use the line. Even if yo go to 50%, not going to have a real impact on the bottom line. In all my years using Bessarion, Leslie and Bayview stations, I have seen next to no increase of ridership for them.
If the subway got built to Victoria Park as plan, not were the money ran out, the ridership maybe 20% more than it is today with the bulk of the ridership using the line today, as well going between VP and Don Mills for the shopping centre.
Just because ton's of condos going up doesn't meant more riders for the subway when bulk of them are using the 401 in the first place as well transit not their thing.
Have you spent any real time on any part of Sheppard from end to end and looked at the ridership???
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Outside of one portion of the LRT network that was built in the first phase, it's entirely grade separated. It's more like Ottawa's LRT system in that it is more of a light metro system.
The Bellevue line specifically is fully grade separated from Downtown Seattle out to Redmond.
it was always funny to me that Olivia Chow used it as a prime example of LRT in her mayoral campaign, because it's quite a different type of LRT than what was proposed in Toronto at the time.
ARG1
Senior Member
The problem is you can't look at existing ridership and say "this is your entire market" and add an arbitrary percentage. You have to take into account where the subway leads, what new routes the extensions open up, and what this means for people travelling. If you open an extension to Scarborough, make it transferless and convenient, how many more trip generators are you going to have where people see the subway, they see all of the new employment opportunities opening up in Scarborough, and say to themsevles, well there is now a convenient and rapid link to Scarborough, now I can justify getting a job there, or vice versa. You bring up how the condos are right along the 401 so the people living there will prefer to use their car but how are you so sure of that? The 401 and DVP are reaching a point where (at least before COVID), they had traffic 24/7. Toronto over time is becoming less and less easy to drive in. If presented an alternative option that would allow these condo dwellers to reach their destination almost as fast if not as fast as the highway, I don't see why they wouldn't take the subway. These are people with jobs and lives, not anti-transit pro car activists, they will chose the transit option that works the best for them, and its up to the government to provide them with good alternatives. Sheppard East LRT isn't a good alternative to the status quo, it is at best a band-aid to a flawed transit setup on the corridor. The only benefit the LRT has over the current busses is it bypasses traffic, but even then if that's what you want just add RapidTO bus lanes. You get your rush hour traffic rapid transit and you don't have to spend several billion dollars doing so.
superelevation
Active Member
superelevation
Active Member
Its a *lot* nicer
jys
Active Member
Over hundreds (thousands?) of posts this and the Sheppard LRT thread has seen over the past years, we seem to have agreed that
1) a transfer from subway to LRT at Don Mills would be highly unpopular and inconvenient;
2) conversion of the Sheppard subway tunnel to LRT operation is challenging and not a good use of funds;
3) extending the subway beyond Vic Park is too expensive and not justifiable.
Therefore, none of the 3 options are ideal. I believe there was also a 4th option raised (on this thread) where the line is converted to Light Metro and extended east above ground (elevated). If the ridership could justify an elevated light metro line on Sheppard East, would it make sense to service Sheppard through an extension of the Ontario Line? The OL could continue north along Don Mills to Sheppard (transfer station to Line 4), and then turn east to travel along Sheppard to meet up with Line 2?
The benefits of such a proposal would be that:
1) passengers could have a 1 seat ride to downtown
2) relief would be provided to Line 1 as most riders would use OL instead of taking Line 4 and transferring to Line 1
It would be significantly cheaper than a full subway extension, and provide faster service than street-level LRT. Would it be a good idea?
1) a transfer from subway to LRT at Don Mills would be highly unpopular and inconvenient;
2) conversion of the Sheppard subway tunnel to LRT operation is challenging and not a good use of funds;
3) extending the subway beyond Vic Park is too expensive and not justifiable.
Therefore, none of the 3 options are ideal. I believe there was also a 4th option raised (on this thread) where the line is converted to Light Metro and extended east above ground (elevated). If the ridership could justify an elevated light metro line on Sheppard East, would it make sense to service Sheppard through an extension of the Ontario Line? The OL could continue north along Don Mills to Sheppard (transfer station to Line 4), and then turn east to travel along Sheppard to meet up with Line 2?
The benefits of such a proposal would be that:
1) passengers could have a 1 seat ride to downtown
2) relief would be provided to Line 1 as most riders would use OL instead of taking Line 4 and transferring to Line 1
It would be significantly cheaper than a full subway extension, and provide faster service than street-level LRT. Would it be a good idea?
ARG1
Senior Member
I'm not sure for how long extending the subway beyond VP is unjustifiable. At the very least justification for a full Sheppard Subway extension is higher than Eglinton West if that means anything. Not to mention I'm not sure light metro technology is a necessity for Line 4 to go above ground either. The reason why Ontario Line is using light metro technology is because of its ability to handle sharper curves, which isn't exactly needed for Sheppard. All you really need for Line 4 is a subway extension to VP, find a suitable location for a portal, then go elevated no problem.
allengeorge
Senior Member
A more important question is whether people will accept elevated along Sheppard. My impression is that residents and Councillor want subway + underground.
Northern Light
Superstar
In the medium term, Sheppard is justified from Sheppard West (to connect to Wilson Yard) to Victoria Park Avenue (serve a major employment and residential node).
But there are myriad other projects that need to happen first, most notably the Relief Line/OL and Yonge North; along with the SSE; and GO Expansion.
Getting those off the ground takes priority and will likely consume most of the next decade.
If we can get that taken care of; then by all means what I noted above should be put in place, along with a Line 2 extension to at least East Mall, if not all the way to Sherway.
***
Extending east of VP is just a bit too fantasy for me, at this point.
It may well become viable in the next few years, should the City's growth go on unabated.
But its just so far down the list...........
But there are myriad other projects that need to happen first, most notably the Relief Line/OL and Yonge North; along with the SSE; and GO Expansion.
Getting those off the ground takes priority and will likely consume most of the next decade.
If we can get that taken care of; then by all means what I noted above should be put in place, along with a Line 2 extension to at least East Mall, if not all the way to Sherway.
***
Extending east of VP is just a bit too fantasy for me, at this point.
It may well become viable in the next few years, should the City's growth go on unabated.
But its just so far down the list...........
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afransen
Senior Member
Personally, I think securing Milton Line for electrified service should be a higher priority.
Northern Light
Superstar
I would include that under 'GO Expansion'.
Rainforest
Senior Member
That could be a problem. One possible way around it is to use the Hwy 401 corridor for part of the subway / light metro route.
Of course that would mean less local density around some of the stations. If we have a choice: expand the transit network in the imperfect manner, or place so many conflicting requirements on any expansion that they can never be met simultaneously and therefore do nothing; then I am not impressed with the second option
In any case, Sheppard shouldn't be on top of the city's list of priorities. The demand west of Yonge and east of Don Mills can be handled by express + local buses, even post-covid. It may be beneficial to extend the OL to Sheppard first, and then review the options for Sheppard itself.