Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[ARG1]

Perhaps they could turn it into a spur of Line 1 where some trains go to Finch and others go to Don Mills.

That would be awful. Finch is one of the busiest stations on the network, and in general, the stations north of Sheppard-Yonge serve one of the largest urban areas of the city that's not downtown. Limiting service there by creating a branch would be a disaster.

 

[innsertnamehere]

That would be awful. Finch is one of the busiest stations on the network, and in general, the stations north of Sheppard-Yonge serve one of the largest urban areas of the city that's not downtown. Limiting service there by creating a branch would be a disaster.

Right now with the service levels that exist on Sheppard, you would need to divert 12 trains an hour. That's about 40% of capacity. This is actually roughly even to the percentage of riders that get off and make the transfer today at Sheppard. Looking at TTC ridership numbers from 2018, it appears that about 65,000 people a day go north of Sheppard, and about 50,000 transfer to Sheppard and go east.

It's not that crazy, but I could see it causing other issues that would make it problematic. You would see people waiting at crowded downtown stations for the right train, causing capacity issues. The way it is right now is better where passengers get on the train and wait for the transfer at a station that has space to accommodate it.

 

[Deadpool X]

In my experience, Line 4 is usually standing room only in rush hour.

Crush load means that everyone is touching or almost touching the person standing next to them. If you need to scratch your leg, you hand will touch someone else first. That's crush load. Standing room only is a far cry from crush load. Typically, standing capacity is many times more than sitting capacity even before crush load.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Right now with the service levels that exist on Sheppard, you would need to divert 12 trains an hour. That's about 40% of capacity. This is actually roughly even to the percentage of riders that get off and make the transfer today at Sheppard. Looking at TTC ridership numbers from 2018, it appears that about 65,000 people a day go north of Sheppard, and about 50,000 transfer to Sheppard and go east.

It's not that crazy, but I could see it causing other issues that would make it problematic. You would see people waiting at crowded downtown stations for the right train, causing capacity issues. The way it is right now is better where passengers get on the train and wait for the transfer at a station that has space to accommodate it.

You also forget that there is by all appearances a decent amount of latent demand north of Sheppard between crowding levels and extension proposals.

The real killer though is that the junction isn't equipped for this. It would be a major tunneling project that would likely results in a level junction configured such that Sheppard services would have to bypass Sheppard/Yonge entirely. A branch really would have needed to be designed as such from the beginning to be in any way feasible.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In my experience, Line 4 is usually standing room only in rush hour.

Taking the above points individually:

• "Standing Room" is hardly an indicator of crush capacity
• The cost of such a small bespoke fleet may indeed be significant in the long term
• At least having a ballpark price on full length platforms, especially going into any serious look at extensions, makes a lot of sense
• I fear that extending the platforms now is more a prelude to through routing with Line 2 than anything else

When I lived on the line, it really depended. Some trains were heavy standing room only, others were crush-loaded.

What was for certain was that they were all used, and that trains, despite being TRs, had different crowding levels in each car.

The Sheppard Line only runs just 10 trains per hour, and each train only has a capacity of about 660 people. Under these conditions, "standing room only" isn't all that impressive.

The line, as currently operated, should have a capacity of 6,600 people per hour per direction. In reality, even when all the seats are taken, there is still a decent amount of space on the train (relative to Line 1, Line 2 and SRT vehicles), so actual line ridership is likely in the ballpark of 5,500 pphpd.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Perhaps they could turn it into a spur of Line 1 where some trains go to Finch and others go to Don Mills.

That would only work in my opinion if it was a spur on the University Line, with half the trains going to Vaughan Metro Centre and the other half going to Don Mills. Would require a tunnel between Yonge and Sheppard and Downview though.

 

[christiesplits]

Had Metro planners had the foresight, I wonder if extending the subway even just to Victoria Park or Warden would have quashed the "Scarborough needs a subway!" battle cry two decades later?

 

[Amare]

Had Metro planners had the foresight, I wonder if extending the subway even just to Victoria Park or Warden would have quashed the "Scarborough needs a subway!" battle cry two decades later?

Remember the 404 is right next door to Don Mills station practically, so if they had extended the line to even Consumers Road it would have driven costs up dramatically.

Not that i'm defending the decision, because frankly it was idiotic not to have the line go out to at least Victoria Park. Lastman and Co. probably thought that Don Mills would be the perfect terminus since Fairview Mall would act as an anchor, and drivers would magically come off the 404 and use the parking lot at Fairview, then commute via subway downtown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Had Metro planners had the foresight, I wonder if extending the subway even just to Victoria Park or Warden would have quashed the "Scarborough needs a subway!" battle cry two decades later?

I don't think so. The entire raison d'etre of the Sheppard Subway was to connect STC to NYCC, which were presumed to have well developed "downtown" cores by now. Unfortunately that development never materialized, as office development trends across the GTHA shifted towards Downtown Toronto. This left the Sheppard Line without much of a purpose to serve.

Today, any Sheppard extension would primarily serve to bring people from Scarbrough and North York into the Downtown core. However this extension would not be particularly effective achieving that. The route from Scarborough to Downtown via the Sheppard Line and Yonge Line would both be very slow, and very overcapacity (it would be practically useless during rush hour). People would be calling for a faster and less crowded route downtown.

With hindsight, the Sheppard Subway proposal should've been scrapped, in exchange for a subway route running along Don Mills or Victoria Park to the Downtown core. It would have been much faster at getting people Downtown than the Sheppard Subway proposal, without any of the Yonge Line crowding issues. A BRT would've been more appropriate for linking STC and NYCC.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Had Metro planners had the foresight, I wonder if extending the subway even just to Victoria Park or Warden would have quashed the "Scarborough needs a subway!" battle cry two decades later?

The plan was originally to have the first phase go to Victoria Park - but Harris shot that down, as well as the Eglinton West subway. Harris wanted to kill the whole thing, but Mel Lastman managed to save the stretch from Yonge to Don Mills.

 

[Amare]

The plan was originally to have the first phase go to Victoria Park - but Harris shot that down, as well as the Eglinton West subway. Harris wanted to kill the whole thing, but Mel Lastman managed to save the stretch from Yonge to Don Mills.

Right cant forget about that idiot Mike Harris who destroyed virtually every portfolio under his watch. Yet another reason why the Sheppard Line continues to hemorrhage cash every day.

I don't think so. The entire raison d'etre of the Sheppard Subway was to connect STC to NYCC, which were presumed to have well developed "downtown" cores by now. Unfortunately that development never materialized, as office development trends across the GTHA shifted towards Downtown Toronto. This left the Sheppard Line without much of a purpose to serve.

Today, any Sheppard extension would primarily serve to bring people from Scarbrough and North York into the Downtown core. However this extension would not be particularly effective achieving that. The route from Scarborough to Downtown via the Sheppard Line and Yonge Line would both be very slow, and very overcapacity (it would be practically useless during rush hour). People would be calling for a faster and less crowded route downtown.

With hindsight, the Sheppard Subway proposal should've been scrapped, in exchange for a subway route running along Don Mills or Victoria Park to the Downtown core. It would have been much faster at getting people Downtown than the Sheppard Subway proposal, without any of the Yonge Line crowding issues. A BRT would've been more appropriate for linking STC and NYCC.

To be honest, development probably would have materialized at NYCC had the Sheppard line been fully extended out to STC. The labour market in Scarborough is still largely untapped in today's age, and that's in part due to the horrid commute times to get in the Downtown core, let alone NYCC.

Having a quicker east-west rapid transit link would have done wonders for commutes into the downtown core and to NYCC.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

So if I mash together all the various interlines folks have been bringing up I get something like this... Anything missing?

Maybe try adding the Flying U and a YUS loop next?

 

[Haydenpoon]

So if I mash together all the various interlines folks have been bringing up I get something like this... Anything missing?
View attachment 277883

Maybe try adding the Flying U and a YUS loop next?

Kipling to VMC via Scarborough.

 

[11th]

Remember the 404 is right next door to Don Mills station practically, so if they had extended the line to even Consumers Road it would have driven costs up dramatically.

Not that i'm defending the decision, because frankly it was idiotic not to have the line go out to at least Victoria Park. Lastman and Co. probably thought that Don Mills would be the perfect terminus since Fairview Mall would act as an anchor, and drivers would magically come off the 404 and use the parking lot at Fairview, then commute via subway downtown.

They were boring the tunnels anyways. They only part that would have driven up costs significantly are the additional Consumer Road and Victoria Park stations.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To be honest, development probably would have materialized at NYCC had the Sheppard line been fully extended out to STC. The labour market in Scarborough is still largely untapped in today's age, and that's in part due to the horrid commute times to get in the Downtown core, let alone NYCC.

Having a quicker east-west rapid transit link would have done wonders for commutes into the downtown core and to NYCC.

I disagree. All over North America, the trend over the past 15 years has been a dramatic shift away from suburban office developments, in favour of intensification in urban cores. I don’t anticipate that any suburban centres in the GTHA would see success, regardless of transportation connections.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Had the Sheppard Subway opened back in the 70s, when the trend was suburban intensification, we very likely would’ve seen substantially more development of NYCC and STC. Unfortunately the line arrived in 2002, which was “too late” to take advantage of that trend