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TTC: Sheppard Subway Extension (Proposed)

ARG1

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No offense, but it kinda sounds like your not "being honest" in the slightest, rather blindly supporting whatever the Ford government supports. Even if it's just an extremely vague line on a map like it is in this situation.
No offense, but can you be any more dishonest about this? The only thing I'm claiming is that there is sound logic for wanting to keep it on Sheppard, and that both options have their own benefits and tradeoffs. There is no "ultimate solution", there are downsides for going to STC, there are downsides to going to Sheppard. Not once have I definitely made a statement of which alignment is better.

The only thing I have and will definitely state is making a linear transfer at Don Mills is beyond silly, and converting the Sheppard Line to OL tech is too.
 

afransen

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No offense, but can you be any more dishonest about this? The only thing I'm claiming is that there is sound logic for wanting to keep it on Sheppard, and that both options have their own benefits and tradeoffs. There is no "ultimate solution", there are downsides for going to STC, there are downsides to going to Sheppard. Not once have I definitely made a statement of which alignment is better.

The only thing I have and will definitely state is making a linear transfer at Don Mills is beyond silly, and converting the Sheppard Line to OL tech is too.
I guess another option is to forget about Sheppard. Just slap a BRT on it and build a new line on Ellesmere/York Mills. I struggle with the idea that Line 4 to McCowan is the highest possible use $8bn could be put to in transit investment.
 

ARG1

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I guess another option is to forget about Sheppard. Just slap a BRT on it and build a new line on Ellesmere/York Mills. I struggle with the idea that Line 4 to McCowan is the highest possible use $8bn could be put to in transit investment.
I find BRT to be a good interim solution. Use it as a way to build up ridership to the point where building a Subway can return immediate results in terms of ridership.
 

north-of-anything

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Maybe we can extend the Sheppard line to Agincourt GO, and then make any eastward extension of the line illegal. That way, we get a new GO connection, we don't need to change technologies, and both STC and Malvern will have the same number of transfers. Everyone wins.
 

Rainforest

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There's a 2km right-of-way set aside for elevated grade-separated transit through Scarb Ctr, and a lot more development planned for Scarb Ctr that could be leveraged.

I think that right-of-way will be difficult to use if wide-bodied TTC trains are retained on Line4:
- The guideway will have to be rebuilt, and the new guideway has to be much wider; is there enough room for that.
- New 150-m long elevated station (or 100-m for 4-car trains, but with no option to expand) will be needed at STC; not sure about having room for that.
- The line needs to get from Sheppard to the right-of-way. The Uxbridge Sub corridor is not to wide between Sheppard and Progress. If the subway remains tunneled there and only emerges in the right-of-way, then part of the 2-km length will be taken for that and not much saving remains.

Maybe, there is a better chance to use the right-of-way if OL type technology is used, but even that needs to be researched.
 

ARG1

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I think that right-of-way will be difficult to use if wide-bodied TTC trains are retained on Line4:
- The guideway will have to be rebuilt, and the new guideway has to be much wider; is there enough room for that.
- New 150-m long elevated station (or 100-m for 4-car trains, but with no option to expand) will be needed at STC; not sure about having room for that.
- The line needs to get from Sheppard to the right-of-way. The Uxbridge Sub corridor is not to wide between Sheppard and Progress. If the subway remains tunneled there and only emerges in the right-of-way, then part of the 2-km length will be taken for that and not much saving remains.

Maybe, there is a better chance to use the right-of-way if OL type technology is used, but even that needs to be researched.
A think a more logical use for that ROW would be for some Rapid Transit Solution on Ellesmere: Either an extension of the SDBRT, or a new LRT that eventually replaces it.
 

nfitz

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The reaction of CP Rail to that construction is likely to be quite negative.
Why? It would have to be quite deep, given how deep Sheppard East station is.

Don't the tail tracks at Sheppard East go further north than that? Where's the TBM launch hole?
 

asher__jo

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Why? It would have to be quite deep, given how deep Sheppard East station is.

Don't the tail tracks at Sheppard East go further north than that? Where's the TBM launch hole?
Anything involving rail land always seems to prove contentious for them. Even something as simple as electrifying the Kitchener line past Brampton, (which in the long-term) freight will likely be electrified in urban areas.
 

Bureaucromancer

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Anything involving rail land always seems to prove contentious for them. Even something as simple as electrifying the Kitchener line past Brampton, (which in the long-term) freight will likely be electrified in urban areas.
Anything in any way impacting freight operations, even if a net positive. I'd be surprised if they make any significant issue of tunnelling under.

OTOH, we've seen **** silly rules like banning tanker trucks above subway tunnels, so maybe not.
 

robmausser

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Anything involving rail land always seems to prove contentious for them. Even something as simple as electrifying the Kitchener line past Brampton, (which in the long-term) freight will likely be electrified in urban areas.

Thats CN, not CP.

But CP is arguably worse.
 

EnviroTO

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I fear the original decision to put Line 4 on Sheppard with heavy metro is always going to be the reason that Line 4 doesn't reach its potential. If it was built on Finch it would line up with Line 6, if it was light rail or light metro it would likely be extended with greater cost effectiveness, if it was smaller LRT vehicles its operating frequency would probably be higher, etc. A desire to avoid a permanent transfer leads to no investment east of Fairview, a desire to keep heavy metro because it is seen as better leads to not putting light metro on the line, and not being light leads to limited affordable options for extension. My hope is that Line 5, and potentially the Ontario Line will lead to minds changing in Toronto about what good possible options exist so that the stalemate that leads to inaction will end.

On the topic of keeping a Line 4 extension on Sheppard vs going to SCC... it makes little sense in the context of avoiding transfers which is deemed so important in discussions of what should happen at Fairview. The primary ride generators are Scarborough Center, Centennial College, UofT Scarborough, and Malvern Town Center... only Malvern Town Center has the potential of better service from Sheppard + McCowan, all the others are better served out of SCC. So being against transfers should lead to people wanting to extend the subway to SCC so that people don't need to transfer as much.
 

nfitz

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I think most of the trips from STC are because that's where the buses go. Much of this will go to Sheppard East when the extension opens - with a lot of time-saving for not crossing the 401 in a bus. And between Agincourt and McCowan, the original plan to put a station south of the 401 at Progress, always seemed to be a poor location.

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