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TTC: Sheppard Subway Extension (Proposed)

Deadpool X

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I think that's more to do with the line having 4-car trains and lower frequencies than Yonge. There isn't enough ridership to pack a 6-car train running at 2'30'' frequencies.
Yes, it's not comparable to Yonge line but the ridership is enough for an LRT line which is not bad considering its length. I believe someone had shared a list of stations on Line 1 that have lower ridership than some of the Sheppard subway stations. Extending the line further east will only increase the passenger volume. Commuters from Scarborough who take the Finch east bus would prefer having a short bus ride to their nearest Sheppard station and continuing their rest of the journey on subway. SSE will eat away some of the ridership but for destinations in North York or Midtown (which is growing fast), Sheppard+Yonge will be a faster option than Bloor+Yonge.
 

syn

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The node of employment at VP/Consumers is already substantial and will only get much moreso with lots of residential infill; huge density is coming to Agincourt Mall's site as well; and as I'm sure others here could tell you,
there are a few other large'ish developments coming on this corridor that aren't yet public.


In terms of the existing line, there is huge density at Don Mills Sheppard and mostly all the way to Finch.

Even on Bayview w/have the large proposal coming up at Tyndale and there's more public and coming between Tyndale and Sheppard.

I think there's a tendency to under-sell this line simply because it was backed by Mel Lastman; was the wrong choice at the time vs the Relief Line; and because it was also truncated, and development initially a bit slow, under performed in its first few years.

But in reality its doing fine and will do much better with time.

And yet ridership over the past few decades has never come close to what they expected when the line was originally conceived.

I'm not sure I'd qualify what currently exists as 'huge density'. There's certainly more than before, but nothing that necessitates a subway line.

For me it doesn't matter who endorsed it. The line was planned along with others quite some time before it was finally built, with the expectation that there would be significant commercial growth along the corridor. That hasn't really happened.

I hope it does - as you pointed out there is quite a lot of additional employment coming. At this point it doesn't really matter. The line is what it is, and like any subway line it's certainly nice to have. I don't mind it extended to STC either. That would've been my original choice instead of the SSE (with a RL/OL extension to Don Mills). At this point though, I don't think it should be a priority.
 

sunnyside

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And yet ridership over the past few decades has never come close to what they expected when the line was originally conceived.

I'm not sure I'd qualify what currently exists as 'huge density'. There's certainly more than before, but nothing that necessitates a subway line.

For me it doesn't matter who endorsed it. The line was planned along with others quite some time before it was finally built, with the expectation that there would be significant commercial growth along the corridor. That hasn't really happened.

I hope it does - as you pointed out there is quite a lot of additional employment coming. At this point it doesn't really matter. The line is what it is, and like any subway line it's certainly nice to have. I don't mind it extended to STC either. That would've been my original choice instead of the SSE (with a RL/OL extension to Don Mills). At this point though, I don't think it should be a priority.
If it keeps going east, and we don't extend Finch or anything else east, Sheppard can start to absorb the busy bus lines of Scarborough and perhaps Markham. A full extension would also connect with Line 2, Stouffville, and line 5 east along with the existing Line 1 and eventually Ontario Line North. Density is also not what drives ridership, with our entire subway system showing the value of connectivity . It'll all be about the transfers and connections; Sheppard is largely a problem because it is a stub.

It is obviously too late now, but was there ever a possibility that Metrolinx dropped the TBM from the other end of the Line 2 extension at Kennedy, and had it curve at Sheppard and connect to Don Mills? We could have added only the most crucial stops to the service, with more added as ridership grows.
 

afransen

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It looks like the aspiration is to eventually extend Line 2 north. I am skeptical it will happen any time soon given the expense and the nearby, newly electrified GO service paralleling such an extension.
 

syn

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If it keeps going east, and we don't extend Finch or anything else east, Sheppard can start to absorb the busy bus lines of Scarborough and perhaps Markham. A full extension would also connect with Line 2, Stouffville, and line 5 east along with the existing Line 1 and eventually Ontario Line North. Density is also not what drives ridership, with our entire subway system showing the value of connectivity . It'll all be about the transfers and connections; Sheppard is largely a problem because it is a stub.

It is obviously too late now, but was there ever a possibility that Metrolinx dropped the TBM from the other end of the Line 2 extension at Kennedy, and had it curve at Sheppard and connect to Don Mills? We could have added only the most crucial stops to the service, with more added as ridership grows.

I disagree. Residential, and more importantly, commercial density is a necessary ingredient for a successful subway.

Extending Line 2 to Stouffville really doesn't make much sense. That's what GO service is for.
 

TheTigerMaster

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The new development is great but it's still nowhere near what's necessary to make the subway worthwhile.

It's hard to see that changing in that particular area. There's just so many family homes and I don't think people are keen for that to change.

I know people argue it's because the line is too short and doesn't go anywhere...but it's still not really planned to 'go anywhere' anytime soon. STC would be great but I question how many people would be traveling from Scarborough to Sheppard, especially when the SSE is done.

The sheppard line's problem is it's length - it doesn't have enough distance to collect the amount of people to be 'justified".

If it was built to full length from Sheppard West to STC, it would be a lot busier, if not entirely full.

Generally, I'm supportive of the idea of closing it for a few years to convert it to a cheaper technology that can be built elevated for the extensions.

The node of employment at VP/Consumers is already substantial and will only get much moreso with lots of residential infill; huge density is coming to Agincourt Mall's site as well; and as I'm sure others here could tell you,
there are a few other large'ish developments coming on this corridor that aren't yet public.

In terms of the existing line, there is huge density at Don Mills Sheppard and mostly all the way to Finch.

Even on Bayview w/have the large proposal coming up at Tyndale and there's more public and coming between Tyndale and Sheppard.

I think there's a tendency to under-sell this line simply because it was backed by Mel Lastman; was the wrong choice at the time vs the Relief Line; and because it was also truncated, and development initially a bit slow, under performed in its first few years.

But in reality its doing fine and will do much better with time.
The Ontario Line extension to Sheppard will have a multiplicative effect on the usefulness of the Sheppard East Extension. With the Sheppard Line extended deep into Scarborough (beyond McCowan), and the Ontario Line extended to Sheppard, I imagine that Sheppard + OL would be a very heavily used route to get Downtown. In many cases, it'll be faster than travelling Downtown via Line 1 and Line 2.

And this is tangential, but I believe we should further leverage the Ontario Line by building BRT routes in Scarbourugh along Lawrence, Ellesmere and Finch to connect to the Ontario Line. Allowing busses along these heavily used routes to connect directly to the Ontario Line, while circumventing traffic congestion, will make the Scarborough transit network enormously more effective at facilitating Downtown-bound travel. Busses will always be the workhouse of the Scarborough transit network, and we're doing the region a disservice by not having a plan to make the surface network more effective.
 
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afransen

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The Ontario Line extension to Sheppard will have a multiplicative effect on the usefulness of the Sheppard East Extension. With the Sheppard Line extended deep into Scarborough (beyond McCowan), and the Ontario Line extended to Sheppard, I imagine that Sheppard + OL would be a very heavily used route to get Downtown. In many cases, it'll be faster than travelling Downtown via Line 1 and Line 2.
1) At $1B/km, extending beyond McCowan is a fantasy.
2) What is even faster for getting downtown is using our shiny new electrified GO lines. Agincourt GO?
 

drum118

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1) At $1B/km, extending beyond McCowan is a fantasy.
2) What is even faster for getting downtown is using our shiny new electrified GO lines. Agincourt GO?
Again, not everyone is going downtown. The subway is not needed east of McCowan as well not needed on Sheppard at all, as an LRT will do the job now and in the future. Only need an BRT today and the next 10 year plus, but doing the LRT things is build for the future. 3 42m cars is all you need, but built the stations for a possible 4th car.

Those who want to get downtown have the option of the weekday GO train at this time hourly that will be reduce this year to 7 days a week again. Come 2031/32 can catch the OL at Eglinton and maybe by 2040 at Sheppard.
 

robmausser

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Again, not everyone is going downtown. The subway is not needed east of McCowan as well not needed on Sheppard at all, as an LRT will do the job now and in the future. Only need an BRT today and the next 10 year plus, but doing the LRT things is build for the future. 3 42m cars is all you need, but built the stations for a possible 4th car.

Those who want to get downtown have the option of the weekday GO train at this time hourly that will be reduce this year to 7 days a week again. Come 2031/32 can catch the OL at Eglinton and maybe by 2040 at Sheppard.

No one in their right mind would take a slow subway from those distances, but would rather take an electric GO Train thats coming every 15 minutes and transfer at something like Kennedy/ East Harbour etc onto the TTC network to not go downtown. You don't have to stay on the GO and get off at Union, no one's pointing a gun at your head.
 

TheTigerMaster

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The Ontario Line extension to Sheppard will have a multiplicative effect on the usefulness of the Sheppard East Extension. With the Sheppard Line extended deep into Scarborough (beyond McCowan), and the Ontario Line extended to Sheppard, I imagine that Sheppard + OL would be a very heavily used route to get Downtown. In many cases, it'll be faster than travelling Downtown via Line 1 and Line 2.

And this is tangential, but I believe we should further leverage the Ontario Line by building BRT routes in Scarbourugh along Lawrence, Ellesmere and Finch to connect to the Ontario Line. Allowing busses along these heavily used routes to connect directly to the Ontario Line, while circumventing traffic congestion, will make the Scarborough transit network enormously more effective at facilitating Downtown-bound travel. Busses will always be the workhouse of the Scarborough transit network, and we're doing the region a disservice by not having a plan to make the surface network more effective.

1) At $1B/km, extending beyond McCowan is a fantasy.
It would not cost anywhere near $1B/km if the extension were elevated.

2) What is even faster for getting downtown is using our shiny new electrified GO lines. Agincourt GO?
The vast majority of transit trips in Scarborough aren't Downtown-bound, and would thus be poorly served by RER. Also, a handful of RER stations isn't good enough to effectively spread rapid transit access across Scarborough.
 

afransen

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It would not cost anywhere near $1B/km if the extension were elevated.


The vast majority of transit trips in Scarborough aren't Downtown-bound, and would thus be poorly served by RER. Also, a handful of RER stations isn't good enough to effectively spread rapid transit access across Scarborough.
Just saying, extending Sheppard isn't for funneling people to OL or Line 1 to downtown. It was meant to connect NYCC and STC. We are now stuck with a linear transfer and expensive solution (extend existing line to McCowan as planned) or linear transfer and cheaper solution (new elevated light metro transfer at Don Mills and on to STC).
 

afransen

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Again, not everyone is going downtown. The subway is not needed east of McCowan as well not needed on Sheppard at all, as an LRT will do the job now and in the future. Only need an BRT today and the next 10 year plus, but doing the LRT things is build for the future. 3 42m cars is all you need, but built the stations for a possible 4th car.

Those who want to get downtown have the option of the weekday GO train at this time hourly that will be reduce this year to 7 days a week again. Come 2031/32 can catch the OL at Eglinton and maybe by 2040 at Sheppard.
If Sheppard won't be extended past McCowan, why does it need to go to McCowan? Why not go to STC, and use this BRT/LRT for the eastern part of Sheppard?
 

11th

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If Sheppard won't be extended past McCowan, why does it need to go to McCowan? Why not go to STC, and use this BRT/LRT for the eastern part of Sheppard?
I wish they can run above surface and extend line 4 to Malvern. In that case, the line 2 /4 interchange can stay at Sheppard/McCowan.
It's nice to have both lines converge at STC, but it doesn't have to be - if either line goes past Sheppard/McCowan.
 

drum118

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If Sheppard won't be extended past McCowan, why does it need to go to McCowan? Why not go to STC, and use this BRT/LRT for the eastern part of Sheppard?
The original plan was to go to STC starting a Birchmount. I assume Kennedy station would replace Don Mills bus terminal.

Again, how many riders are going to STC to justify taking the line there? You would be lucky to have every 2nd or 3rd train going east of Kennedy to justify the ridership and quality of service.

Still support having the current line going to Victoria as original plan until the money ran out to build it under good old Mike and then LRT going east. Prefer to convert the existing line to LRT and then take it west to Weston Rd.
 
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afransen

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I guess we don't need to rehash this discussion. Street running LRT is not rapid transit. Toronto needs a crosstown/orbital line to connect the various radial lines (subway/GO) Line 5 is a failure in that regard. Sheppard is our next opportunity but it seems likely we will screw it up by building it as $1b/km underground TR. Converting to LRT and street running is a failure in the other direction. Maybe our next hope is the 407 orbital line. It's just a disaster for regional transit connectivity that we do not prioritize a fast orbital connection. It's not sustainable for downtown to be the only easily accessible location for employment.
 

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