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TTC: Sheppard Subway Extension (Proposed)

Rainforest

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If Sheppard subway is converted to another (more agile) high-floor rolling stock, then few if any structural changes will be needed. There could be a number of elements to modify: perhaps the rail gauge, electric and control systems etc. But that should be doable in months, not years. And, it might be possible to handle one track at a time and retain one shuttle train running on a single track to deal with the riders volume, thus not pushing all riders onto the buses.

I suspect the conversion won't happen, but not because it is a bad idea. It won't happen because the government usually takes the path of least resistance, and that's extending the line using the existing rolling stock. In that case, the line will terminate at McCowan, and is very unlikely to ever be extended further east.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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We can avoid this by using shorter subway cars that are still compatible with the TTC rolling stock, which should enable greater maneuverability, and perhaps elevation.

I suspect. Just putting the idea out there.

Without rolling stock more conductive to elevation, this subway isn’t going anywhere but Sheppard and McCowan. Which is unfortunate. Scarborough is a big place, and such an extension would leave half of Scaborough with zero rapid transit coverage. We can do better than that.
We've had this debate before i don't see it hapyat all there is zero reason to do it. You're argument about shorter cars makes no sense it would be a waste of money and time to do it.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Pretty much anyone with half a brain knows Line 4 was obscenely overbuilt. Extending it as such is a continuation of this gross misuse of funds. And that is the reason it's not being extended.

Having a conversation and presentation of different options is the mature thing to do. And there are options, ones that offer identical service as a Toronto subway. But instead we're getting empty promises. Oddly enough aligning with an election, funny that.
Extendeding it with a completely different type of train is dumb as is wasting money on regaining the existing line. Anyone who has a brain should see how dumb it sounds.
 
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EastYorkTTCFan

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It amazes me how people on here seem to think that every time that someone disagrees with an idea they and presents a logical reason as to why it wouldn't happen they get told that anyone who has half a brain should see that there idea makes sense.
 

TheTigerMaster

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We've had this debate before i don't see it hapyat all there is zero reason to do it. You're argument about shorter cars makes no sense it would be a waste of money and time to do it.
Waste of money? We’d take the Line 4 rolling stock, move it to Line 1 and 2 and buy shorter cars for Line 4. Nothing would be wasted.
 

nfitz

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Waste of money? We’d take the Line 4 rolling stock, move it to Line 1 and 2 and buy shorter cars for Line 4. Nothing would be wasted.
While I see the logic to your point, I'm not sure that the next phases (east and west) of Line 4, should go anywhere but along Sheppard - with little need for steeper grades, or tighter curves.

What I'd sooner see is Ontario line rolling stock be usable on existing lines (though not having existing rolling stock work on the Ontario line). This would allow for future extensions of all the lines to support greater flexibility and steeper grades. Though it looks like they'll scupper that be coming up about a foot short on the width of the Ontario Line rolling stock.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Waste of money? We’d take the Line 4 rolling stock, move it to Line 1 and 2 and buy shorter cars for Line 4. Nothing would be wasted.
By the time the line gets built they will probably be replacing the Toronto Rockets anyway. Your idea makes no sense at all. We don't even know what they are going to use on the Ontario line yet but people already seem to think that it's a good replacement for line 4. By the time they end up working on line 4 extensions they will probably increase the platform lengths to six cars for what they were designed for. If we keep line 4 with the current track design then we would have a second subway line going east west instead of a subway line and an LRT line.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Very broadly speaking, I feel that we need to move discussions on Scarborough away from, "we need to build a subway on Sheppard" to "we need to figure out how to build an effective integrated mass transit system for Scarborough".

Recall that the Sheppard Subway came about to solve a very specific problem. North York Centre and Scarborough Centre were planned to become huge employment nodes, and the Sheppard Subway was needed to move huge numbers of peak hour riders between the two centres. Had those conditions materialized, the Sheppard Subway would be the biggest no-brainer ever. But those conditions never did materialize, and thus fundamental premise for the Sheppard Subway simply does not exist anymore.

At this point I really don't know what problem we're trying to solve with the Sheppard Subway anymore. If our goal is to deliver effective mass transit to Scarborough, we can do a lot better than this.

Let’s step back and find a better solution.
 
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afransen

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By the time the line gets built they will probably be replacing the Toronto Rockets anyway. Your idea makes no sense at all. We don't even know what they are going to use on the Ontario line yet but people already seem to think that it's a good replacement for line 4. By the time they end up working on line 4 extensions they will probably increase the platform lengths to six cars for what they were designed for. If we keep line 4 with the current track design then we would have a second subway line going east west instead of a subway line and an LRT line.
We know the rolling stock will be light metro, catenary, standard gauge, and capable of higher grades and tighter turns than TRs. It's not a mystery what type of rolling stock we will get.
 

afransen

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Very broadly speaking, I feel that we need to move discussions on Scarborough away from, "we need to build a subway on Sheppard" to "we need to figure out how to build an effective integrated mass transit system for Scarborough".

Recall that the Sheppard Subway came about to solve a very specific problem. North York Centre and Scarborough Centre were planned to become huge employment nodes, and the Sheppard Subway was needed to move huge numbers of peak hour riders between the two centres. Had those conditions materialized, the Sheppard Subway would be the biggest no-brainer ever. But those conditions never did materialize, and thus fundamental premise for the Sheppard Subway simply does not exist anymore.

At this point I really don't know what problem we're trying to solve with the Sheppard Subway anymore. If our goal is to deliver effective mass transit to Scarborough, we can do a lot better than this.

Let’s step back and find a better solution.
The only idea that makes sense to me with the currently contemplated extension is to try and make Sheppard/McCowan the new STC. But why are we building Ellesmere BRT to STC then? We should be trying to make mobility hubs in the burbs. This (plan) aint it chief.
 

afransen

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Extendeding it with a completely different type of train is dumb as is wasting money on regaining the existing line. Anyone who has a brain should see how dumb it sounds.
Frankly, a big expensive tunneled extension of Line 4 can be described as a waste of money. And we'll be extending it to Sheppard West sometime around 2100, especially if it costs $1b/km.
 

ARG1

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The only idea that makes sense to me with the currently contemplated extension is to try and make Sheppard/McCowan the new STC. But why are we building Ellesmere BRT to STC then? We should be trying to make mobility hubs in the burbs. This (plan) aint it chief.
You don't really need to assume a central "downtown" area, and in all likelihood the density will be shared/split between the two.
 

afransen

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You don't really need to assume a central "downtown" area, and in all likelihood the density will be shared/split between the two.
We're designing a really crappy solution if someone arriving on Ellesmere BRT headed toward NYCC needs to transfer to Line 1, take it one stop north, then transfer to Line 4. Or students from North York headed to UTSC/Centennial. It's just painfully dumb. The logical extension for Line 4 further east from McCowan is down Ellesmere to replace the BRT in due course. It could always swing down Neilson to hit SHN/UTSC but then you're making it hard for all those people to get to the major regional centre in Scarborough.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Very broadly speaking, I feel that we need to move discussions on Scarborough away from, "we need to build a subway on Sheppard" to "we need to figure out how to build an effective integrated mass transit system for Scarborough".

Recall that the Sheppard Subway came about to solve a very specific problem. North York Centre and Scarborough Centre were planned to become huge employment nodes, and the Sheppard Subway was needed to move huge numbers of peak hour riders between the two centres. Had those conditions materialized, the Sheppard Subway would be the biggest no-brainer ever. But those conditions never did materialize, and thus fundamental premise for the Sheppard Subway simply does not exist anymore.

At this point I really don't know what problem we're trying to solve with the Sheppard Subway anymore. If our goal is to deliver effective mass transit to Scarborough, we can do a lot better than this.

Let’s step back and find a better solution.

The only idea that makes sense to me with the currently contemplated extension is to try and make Sheppard/McCowan the new STC. But why are we building Ellesmere BRT to STC then? We should be trying to make mobility hubs in the burbs. This (plan) aint it chief.
In my opinion this extension needs to travel directly to Scarborough Town Centre. I really see no case for building a Sheppard Line that terminates at Sheppard/McCowan.

Scarborough Centre is the major transit and commercial hub in Scarborough. As you said in your previous post, why the heck would we force commuters arriving at Scarborough Centre to transfer to Line 2 and then Line 4 to access the Sheppard Line. It makes no sense. We're adding 5 to 10 mins to their journey times, and this will kill a lot of the potential ridership on the Sheppard corridor.

I'll also add that one of the benefits of bringing the line to Scarborough Centre is that the extension could utilize the Scarborough RT right-of-way. This would cut down on construction costs, and give us the option of serving Centennial College and Malvern Centre, as envisioned in Transit City. I can imagine a scenario where one branch travels north to Malvern, and another continues east along Ellesmere, for example. This would spread rapid transit access across Scarborough, and connect these relatively isolated communities directly to Scarborough Centre, which is a huge win.

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44 North

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If Sheppard subway is converted to another (more agile) high-floor rolling stock, then few if any structural changes will be needed. There could be a number of elements to modify: perhaps the rail gauge, electric and control systems etc. But that should be doable in months, not years. And, it might be possible to handle one track at a time and retain one shuttle train running on a single track to deal with the riders volume, thus not pushing all riders onto the buses.

I suspect the conversion won't happen, but not because it is a bad idea. It won't happen because the government usually takes the path of least resistance, and that's extending the line using the existing rolling stock. In that case, the line will terminate at McCowan, and is very unlikely to ever be extended further east.
Is that the path of least resistance tho? I'd say the resistor is money, as it always is. And for a project like this it requires a heckuva lot of it. YNSE is the highest per km project cost not just in the GTA, but likely the world. Extending Sheppard, whenever that happens since it's unfunded, would be more than that. Think about it.

You know how in other threads ppl will claim Yonge south of Bloor can handle 60k pphpd. It can't, but let's pretend. A line like Sheppard with its large, safe, modern stations should be able to handle a lot more than 60k pphpd using the same logic. Meanwhile the projected demand is ~5k pphpd.

So most expensive project in the world. With 10x the capacity than is needed. And there's no money for it. Seems like the path of least resistance would be to not extend as the current setup.

It amazes me how people on here seem to think that every time that someone disagrees with an idea they and presents a logical reason as to why it wouldn't happen they get told that anyone who has half a brain should see that there idea makes sense.
It's like Marie Antoinette. Let them have 6-car subways! Notice that Sheppard isn't funded, and we didn't get a ballpark cost.
 

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