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TTC: Sheppard Subway Extension (Proposed)

Northern Light

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In the medium term, Sheppard is justified from Sheppard West (to connect to Wilson Yard) to Victoria Park Avenue (serve a major employment and residential node).

But there are myriad other projects that need to happen first, most notably the Relief Line/OL and Yonge North; along with the SSE; and GO Expansion.

Getting those off the ground takes priority and will likely consume most of the next decade.

If we can get that taken care of; then by all means what I noted above should be put in place, along with a Line 2 extension to at least East Mall, if not all the way to Sherway.

***

Extending east of VP is just a bit too fantasy for me, at this point.

It may well become viable in the next few years, should the City's growth go on unabated.

But its just so far down the list...........
 
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Rainforest

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A more important question is whether people will accept elevated along Sheppard. My impression is that residents and Councillor want subway + underground.

That could be a problem. One possible way around it is to use the Hwy 401 corridor for part of the subway / light metro route.

Of course that would mean less local density around some of the stations. If we have a choice: expand the transit network in the imperfect manner, or place so many conflicting requirements on any expansion that they can never be met simultaneously and therefore do nothing; then I am not impressed with the second option :)

In any case, Sheppard shouldn't be on top of the city's list of priorities. The demand west of Yonge and east of Don Mills can be handled by express + local buses, even post-covid. It may be beneficial to extend the OL to Sheppard first, and then review the options for Sheppard itself.
 

M II A II R II K

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Then dont elevate it along Sheppard and rebrand it as an Uptown line that goes all the way to Rouge Hill to provide for an uptown regional rail service.
 

syn

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In the medium term, Sheppard is justified from Sheppard West (to connect to Wilson Yard) to Victoria Park Avenue (serve a major employment and residential node).

But there are myriad other projects that need to happen first, mostly notably the Relief Line/OL and Yonge North; along with the SSE; and GO Expansion.

Getting those off the ground takes priority and will likely consume most of the next decade.

If we can get that taken are of; then by all means what I noted above should be put in place, along with a Line 2 extension to at least East Mall, if not all the way to Sherway.

***

Extending east of VP is just a bit too fantasy for me, at this point.

It may well become viable in the next few years, should the City's growth go on unabated.

But its just so far down the list...........

Agreed. I think the best subway for Scarborough would've been a Sheppard extension with a stop at STC, ending with a stop at/near Rogue National Park.

Combined with a DRL North to Don Mills, Scarborough residents would have a good GO alternative for downtown travel. The Scarborough LRT and EELRT would've been good options for additional rapid transit.
 

drum118

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As a person who saw on my 2006 map the Sheppard Subway going to the airport and to Pickering Town Centre is today only an LRT and will never meet the requirement for a subway for 75-100 years out.

I can see why TTC wants an extension to Wilson as it allows faster movement to get work trains and crews to the Yonge line faster as well trains into service for both normal and closure of the lines for repairs, other than storing trains on line for the closure.

I will only support the extension to Victoria Park as it was where the line was to stop in the first place until money ran out and the best place to change technologies.

If the cost to convert the existing subway to LRT can be lower, it would allow replacing my 2006 subway plan to an LRT. The cost to extend the subway/LRT to Victoria is almost the same and why I support the subway extension.

Clearly to me, no one has every taken a Really Clouse Look at Sheppard east of Victoria let along Kennedy Rd to see why a subway is a waste of money and few riders going to/from STC in the first place. Sure there are a few new towers going up and plan for, but not enough of them to support a subway.

To be real, you only need an BRT on Sheppard for the next 20 years or so as it only moving 3,500 people per hour week days.
 

Aplus23

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As a person who saw on my 2006 map the Sheppard Subway going to the airport and to Pickering Town Centre is today only an LRT and will never meet the requirement for a subway for 75-100 years out.

I can see why TTC wants an extension to Wilson as it allows faster movement to get work trains and crews to the Yonge line faster as well trains into service for both normal and closure of the lines for repairs, other than storing trains on line for the closure.

I will only support the extension to Victoria Park as it was where the line was to stop in the first place until money ran out and the best place to change technologies.

If the cost to convert the existing subway to LRT can be lower, it would allow replacing my 2006 subway plan to an LRT. The cost to extend the subway/LRT to Victoria is almost the same and why I support the subway extension.

Clearly to me, no one has every taken a Really Clouse Look at Sheppard east of Victoria let along Kennedy Rd to see why a subway is a waste of money and few riders going to/from STC in the first place. Sure there are a few new towers going up and plan for, but not enough of them to support a subway.

To be real, you only need an BRT on Sheppard for the next 20 years or so as it only moving 3,500 people per hour week days.
But as someone like myself who lives east for VP and sheppard, how long do think is an acceptable bus ride to get into the North York core? It's like an hour for me to get to donmills station, even on an express bus.

Kennedy being the furthest eastern stop with an let or subway is ludacris, and all everyone says is that a BRT will solve all of Scarborough issues, yet we have express busses and it still takes a long time to get to a station.

Busses should be for short trips to n from stations, and other residential areas that are far away from stations, that service side streets. If you're on a bus for 45-1hr, the system is failing.
 

drum118

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But as someone like myself who lives east for VP and sheppard, how long do think is an acceptable bus ride to get into the North York core? It's like an hour for me to get to donmills station, even on an express bus.

Kennedy being the furthest eastern stop with an let or subway is ludacris, and all everyone says is that a BRT will solve all of Scarborough issues, yet we have express busses and it still takes a long time to get to a station.

Busses should be for short trips to n from stations, and other residential areas that are far away from stations, that service side streets. If you're on a bus for 45-1hr, the system is failing.
Like you, I have a 35 minute bus ride and accept it as the route doesn't justify anything else. Not every route can be near RT as RT cannot be in every low density area as the cost is too high to do so both at the fare box and taxes.

More important is the time factor to build the line as well the cost to do so. To build RT means who gets good service and who gets poor service since there is only X $ to run a system.

If you think your 45-1hr tips are long, you should visit other cities in NA that you will find it very common to the point there are no RT in the city.

Everyone want to go from BUS TO RT and not look at other means in between them that will cost less and will be faster than a bus, but slower than RT.

The bottom line starts with the city you live in that is now part of Toronto that did not wanted to be part of Toronto until Mike Harris said so. They call the shots until the merger of what their city/Town was to be and was built around the car like most places since the 50's.

At the end of the day, you have a choice to be near an RT or not based on what you can afford to rent or buy.

If you poll the city and asked them if they are willing to pay more all around to built RT to all areas like yours or other type of systems including the bus, you will find RT being rejected and a lot saying the bus is the best choice for the cost.

I have been to cities in NA that have built LRT lines and shake my head as to why when it doesn't meet any standards in the first place. One city only see 4,000 riders a day with 15 minute service to the point they are now planning a 7 mile extension through very low density area to the airport that see not many flights a day in the first place. Most will drive or take a cab after the line is built.

If the systems is failing for a 45-1 hr bus ride, what do you call 45 minutes on a subway??
 
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superelevation

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A more important question is whether people will accept elevated along Sheppard. My impression is that residents and Councillor want subway + underground.

Elevated rail is usually not accepted until you show people it can be done well, as most major cities realize . . . .
 

TheTigerMaster

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We have already done it with SRT, and we are doing it with OL - neither started off with "not accepted" as a precondition.

AoD
The SRT's elevated portion does not run adjacent to any major roads and is largely hidden from view by industrial buildings and the shopping centre. You're technically correct here, but it's not exactly a shining example of the willingness of Torotonian's to accept elevated rail in their neighbourhoods.

Now the question for Sheppard is are people willing to accept elevated rail running adjacent to their single family homes?
 

TheTigerMaster

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We have already done it with SRT, and we are doing it with OL - neither started off with "not accepted" as a precondition.

AoD

The SRT's elevated portion does not run adjacent to any major roads and is largely hidden from view by industrial buildings and the shopping centre. You're technically correct here, but it's not exactly a shining example of the willingness of Torotonian's to accept elevated rail in their neighbourhoods.

Now the question for Sheppard is are people willing to accept elevated rail running adjacent to their single family homes?

The fortunate thing on Sheppard is that for nearly the entire corridor, single family dwellings are either on one side of Sheppard at a time. Or in other words, either the north side or south side of Sheppard will have single family dwellings, but never both sides at the same time.

If an actual elevated transit line were ever built here, I'd image we'd take advantage of the generous road width to run the line as far away from homes as possible.

The exceptions to this are predominantly located east of Markham Rd where, in this segment, single family dwellings are located on both sides of Sheppard. However the avenue here is very wide and privacy is provided by tall, mature trees. I'd imagine a commitment to plant additional trees to provide privacy and reduce noise would be seen as a win for all parties.

The secondary benefit to this is that it beautifies the urban environment (and thus reduces aesthetic objections) while also improving transit. It's a measure that should be considered for all elevated lines, in my opinion.

Screen Shot 2021-04-26 at 1.26.18 AM.png
 
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tsm1072

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The exceptions to this are predominantly located east of Markham Rd where, in this segment, single family dwellings are located on both sides of Sheppard. However the avenue here is very wide and privacy is provided by tall, mature trees. I'd imagine a commitment to plant additional trees to provide privacy and reduce noise would be seen as a win for all parties.
If they were ever going to do an elevated line along Sheppard, I'd expect it to follow the CP ROW east of Midland. It would still be close enough to the connection at Sheppard-McCowan, while providing a better route to a logical terminus of Malvern.
 

drum118

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I shot these videos when the Sheppard LRT was proposed as before look back in 2009

Sheppard Eastbound Don Mills to Consumers Rd​


Sheppard Eastbound Consumers Rd to GO Line​


Sheppard Eastbound GO to Markham Rd​

 

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