Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[aquateam]

Taking the above points individually:

• "Standing Room" is hardly an indicator of crush capacity
• The cost of such a small bespoke fleet may indeed be significant in the long term
• At least having a ballpark price on full length platforms, especially going into any serious look at extensions, makes a lot of sense
• I fear that extending the platforms now is more a prelude to through routing with Line 2 than anything else

Doesn't the SSE to Sheppard preclude the through-routing with Line 2? I remember there was a push for the "Big Bend" proposal, which would have turned Line 2 towards Sheppard, but that was back when it was a single-stop "Express subway."

So if I mash together all the various interlines folks have been bringing up I get something like this... Anything missing?
View attachment 277883

Maybe try adding the Flying U and a YUS loop next?

You forgot to add the DRL and its extension to Sherway to meet up with Line 2.

 

[mdu]

It's just one big line?

Always has been.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Doesn't the SSE to Sheppard preclude the through-routing with Line 2? I remember there was a push for the "Big Bend" proposal, which would have turned Line 2 towards Sheppard, but that was back when it was a single-stop "Express subway."

View attachment 277906



You forgot to add the DRL and its extension to Sherway to meet up with Line 2.

View attachment 277908

But I want to go by subway to the Toronto Zoo!

 

[nfitz]

Had the Sheppard Subway opened back in the 70s, when the trend was suburban intensification, we very likely would’ve seen substantially more development of NYCC and STC. Unfortunately the line arrived in 2002, which was “too late” to take advantage of that trend

Perhaps ... the 20-year after Line 4 completion ridership was estimated to be completely pathetic, the last time they modelled ridership, even compared to the same scenarios they modelled in the 1990s. Seemed to be even lower east of Victoria park to connect it to Scarborough Centre, than instead run an LRT along Sheppard, looking at the EA. No wonder perhaps that the latest plan no longer has Line 4 as subway to Scarborough Centre, but to Sheppard/McCowan.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Doesn't the SSE to Sheppard preclude the through-routing with Line 2? I remember there was a push for the "Big Bend" proposal, which would have turned Line 2 towards Sheppard, but that was back when it was a single-stop "Express subway."

I hope so, but with the version of Sheppard that the province likes never going south of the 401 it still seems a real possibility.

 

[99Messier]

Doesn't the SSE to Sheppard preclude the through-routing with Line 2? I remember there was a push for the "Big Bend" proposal, which would have turned Line 2 towards Sheppard, but that was back when it was a single-stop "Express subway."

View attachment 277906

You forgot to add the DRL and its extension to Sherway to meet up with Line 2.

Although I appreciate the beauty of the single line - I would keep the Bloor Line Green and the Sheppard Line Purple.
As they say on the Ontario Line - bring the line up from underground to save money - which can be done here for the Green Line just north of the Railway, and for the Purple line just west of Midland.

 

[ARG1]

I disagree. All over North America, the trend over the past 15 years has been a dramatic shift away from suburban office developments, in favour of intensification in urban cores. I don’t anticipate that any suburban centres in the GTHA would see success, regardless of transportation connections.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Had the Sheppard Subway opened back in the 70s, when the trend was suburban intensification, we very likely would’ve seen substantially more development of NYCC and STC. Unfortunately the line arrived in 2002, which was “too late” to take advantage of that trend

Not necessarily. Vancouver is currently in full swing with large suburban centres being developped, namely Brentwood and Metrotown. Just because its not common doesn't mean its impossible. Its just about where you upzone as a city planner.

 

[officedweller]

The best example of a recently densified suburban downtown is Bellevue - across the lake from Seattle.

 

[asher__jo]

The plan was originally to have the first phase go to Victoria Park - but Harris shot that down, as well as the Eglinton West subway. Harris wanted to kill the whole thing, but Mel Lastman managed to save the stretch from Yonge to Don Mills.

Can we all agree the Harris government set Ontario back more than a decade?

 

[Amare]

Can we all agree the Harris government set Ontario back more than a decade?

His legacy will always endure (and not in the good way that he thinks people will remember him by).

Now he's busy destroying long-term care homes at Chartwell.

 

[Deadpool X]

So if I mash together all the various interlines folks have been bringing up I get something like this... Anything missing?
View attachment 277883

Maybe try adding the Flying U and a YUS loop next?

I want to ride the purple route from Bayview to North York Centre via Scarborough and downtown because I am too lazy to transfer at Sheppard-Yonge station.

 

[11th]

I disagree. All over North America, the trend over the past 15 years has been a dramatic shift away from suburban office developments, in favour of intensification in urban cores. I don’t anticipate that any suburban centres in the GTHA would see success, regardless of transportation connections.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Had the Sheppard Subway opened back in the 70s, when the trend was suburban intensification, we very likely would’ve seen substantially more development of NYCC and STC. Unfortunately the line arrived in 2002, which was “too late” to take advantage of that trend

NYCC and SCC want to be Toronto's "Buckhead", but I guess the timing was off? With the recession and the amalgamation.

 

[Johnny Au]

NYCC and SCC want to be Toronto's "Buckhead", but I guess the timing was off? With the recession and the amalgamation.

Even the former city of York wanted to be Toronto's "Buckhead" but Mike Harris' "Common Sense" Revolution happened.

 

[syn]

I disagree. All over North America, the trend over the past 15 years has been a dramatic shift away from suburban office developments, in favour of intensification in urban cores. I don’t anticipate that any suburban centres in the GTHA would see success, regardless of transportation connections.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Had the Sheppard Subway opened back in the 70s, when the trend was suburban intensification, we very likely would’ve seen substantially more development of NYCC and STC. Unfortunately the line arrived in 2002, which was “too late” to take advantage of that trend

Agreed.

The suburban extensions were planned when it was expected that intensification and growth would happen away from the downtown core. That never really materialized (certainly not to anywhere near the degree they expected). The bulk of demand continued to be downtown.

We used to build subways where they were justified by existing density and demand. For some reason we now continue to do the opposite.

You'd think nearly half a century of underused suburban expansion would've taught us this is a poor strategy.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Agreed.

The suburban extensions were planned when it was expected that intensification and growth would happen away from the downtown core. That never really materialized (certainly not to anywhere near the degree they expected). The bulk of demand continued to be downtown.

We used to build subways where they were justified by existing density and demand. For some reason we now continue to do the opposite.

You'd think nearly half a century of underused suburban expansion would've taught us this is a poor strategy.

The Network 2011 plan from 1985 had the Sheppard subway as the first priority and being built by 1993, which is consistent with syn's first point above. We only got half of it nine years later thanks to the usual dithering and Mike Harris. Metro's plan was to build out satellite downtowns at STC, NYCC and in Etobicoke, but the realities of the 1990s (remember Bob Rae and the "Commercial Concentration Tax"?) ended up pushing suburban office development out of Toronto up the 404 and west to Mississauga.