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TTC: Sheppard Subway Extension (Proposed)

WislaHD

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Walk-in traffic doesn't generate high enough ridership, the residents along the Sheppard corridor have their mode share split with car (Hwy-401 is next door) still, and despite all the condos that have gone up, actual trip generation have remained low since none of these condos have any office or employment component to generate outside trips.

A two-station extension to Victoria Park is interesting because this would intercept the Victoria Park bus, and the Consumers area has many offices and employment that would generate trips from outside the corridor.
 

W. K. Lis

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Walk-in traffic doesn't generate high enough ridership, the residents along the Sheppard corridor have their mode share split with car (Hwy-401 is next door) still, and despite all the condos that have gone up, actual trip generation have remained low since none of these condos have any office or employment component to generate outside trips.

A two-station extension to Victoria Park is interesting because this would intercept the Victoria Park bus, and the Consumers area has many offices and employment that would generate trips from outside the corridor.

Guess there's not much "walk-in traffic" at Union, King, or St. Andrew Stations, being so "close" to the Gardiner Expressway in comparison.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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I think this is getting built whether we like it or not. Especially if they manage to get the Ontario Line and Eglinton West extensions off before 2031. It will go to Sheppard and McCowan too, might as well get full use if that is going to be a major bus terminal. We need to move on from the Scarborough debate for good, and full completion would do that. We need to be focusing on Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Warden, Markham Rd, East Bayfront and Waterfront West/Exhibition extensions in the coming future.
 

syn

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I just find it amusing after how many condos went up around the Sheppard Line, ridership remained flat lined after 18 years of opening. The system ridership has been growing and this line has been trap in year 2002. The problem is these people are likely just taking it once or twice a week.

Unless TTC data is wrong, the line had a ridership of 47-50k for the last decade: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/index.jsp

The number of condos that've been built aren't anywhere close to providing the kind of density necessary to justify a subway in this corridor. Planners knew that when the line was being built. It's not too surprising.

What is unfortunately surprising is that we're continuing to make the same foolish, politically motivated mst


I think this is getting built whether we like it or not. Especially if they manage to get the Ontario Line and Eglinton West extensions off before 2031. It will go to Sheppard and McCowan too, might as well get full use if that is going to be a major bus terminal. We need to move on from the Scarborough debate for good, and full completion would do that. We need to be focusing on Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Warden, Markham Rd, East Bayfront and Waterfront West/Exhibition extensions in the coming future.

Would it? What does full completion even mean?

This line isn't on the radar at the moment. There's a promise to build it at some undefined point in the future, but it has no funding.

If we can't move on to other important transit priorities until this is done, then the GTA is in trouble.
 

M II A II R II K

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They should have built multiple Liberty Villages with the same density sandwiched between Sheppard and the 401 which would have had the selling point of being close to the subway and the 401.

With a Sheppard built up to look like Yonge St. in North York.
 

WislaHD

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I think this is getting built whether we like it or not. Especially if they manage to get the Ontario Line and Eglinton West extensions off before 2031. It will go to Sheppard and McCowan too, might as well get full use if that is going to be a major bus terminal. We need to move on from the Scarborough debate for good, and full completion would do that. We need to be focusing on Steeles, Jane, Kipling, Warden, Markham Rd, East Bayfront and Waterfront West/Exhibition extensions in the coming future.
Wouldn't the Scarborough debate just move it's goalposts accordingly? There is a lot of Scarborough out there, it's a big place.

Build the Eglinton East extension along with some subways, but I wish we could actually prioritize building a BRT network across Scarborough to actually serve the borough and satisfy transit needs for a generation.
 

11th

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Walk-in traffic doesn't generate high enough ridership, the residents along the Sheppard corridor have their mode share split with car (Hwy-401 is next door) still, and despite all the condos that have gone up, actual trip generation have remained low since none of these condos have any office or employment component to generate outside trips.

A two-station extension to Victoria Park is interesting because this would intercept the Victoria Park bus, and the Consumers area has many offices and employment that would generate trips from outside the corridor.
Have to understand who are living in those condos. They either work/go to school outside of downtown (905s), or they don't work and drive everywhere because their social life is not downtown or places easily accessible by current transit routes.

The only way to have substantial ridership growth is to have feeder routes, and that requires an extension into north Scarborough.
 

syn

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When Sheppard was originally proposed (along with other suburban routes), the projection was that major business and residential growth would occur in these corridors, justifying the need for a subway.

That didn't happen. Business and residential development continued to favour the downtown core, making the Sheppard Line unnecessary.

Even if they built more condos, the lack of commercial uses along this corridor would be an issue as far as ridership is concerned.
 

ARG1

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When Sheppard was originally proposed (along with other suburban routes), the projection was that major business and residential growth would occur in these corridors, justifying the need for a subway.

That didn't happen. Business and residential development continued to favour the downtown core, making the Sheppard Line unnecessary.

Even if they built more condos, the lack of commercial uses along this corridor would be an issue as far as ridership is concerned.

The Problem is that they were basing the projections based off what happened to North York Center, where after finishing the subway to Finch, a boom of Urban Development happened. Problem is unlike the Yonge Line, the Sheppard Line doesn't go anywhere, and the fact that you have to make a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge makes the area a lot less appealing for development.
 

syn

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The Problem is that they were basing the projections based off what happened to North York Center, where after finishing the subway to Finch, a boom of Urban Development happened.

I don't think it was just based on North York Centre, but also the idea that companies would find the suburban districts more desirable (due to cost, etc.).

Problem is unlike the Yonge Line, the Sheppard Line doesn't go anywhere, and the fact that you have to make a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge makes the area a lot less appealing for development.

Why is a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge a problem?
 

Streety McCarface

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They should have built multiple Liberty Villages with the same density sandwiched between Sheppard and the 401 which would have had the selling point of being close to the subway and the 401.

With a Sheppard built up to look like Yonge St. in North York.
It was originally envisioned to be. North York Centre supports a full Yonge Line, they just needed Sheppard to support half of one, but development moved elsewhere in the city after Amalgamation.
When Sheppard was originally proposed (along with other suburban routes), the projection was that major business and residential growth would occur in these corridors, justifying the need for a subway.

That didn't happen. Business and residential development continued to favour the downtown core, making the Sheppard Line unnecessary.

Even if they built more condos, the lack of commercial uses along this corridor would be an issue as far as ridership is concerned.
They weren't actually favoring the downtown core at the time, quite the opposite. North York Centre was built because people saw it as a way to get away from the crowded downtown core. Once Sheppard was built, development didn't move back Downtown, it moved to Eglinton Yonge, Davisville, and along Line 2. It would take another 5-10 years for developers to begin redeveloping mass areas of Downtown.
The Problem is that they were basing the projections based off what happened to North York Center, where after finishing the subway to Finch, a boom of Urban Development happened. Problem is unlike the Yonge Line, the Sheppard Line doesn't go anywhere, and the fact that you have to make a transfer at Sheppard-Yonge makes the area a lot less appealing for development.
It wasn't that, it was the fact that other subway corridors were seemingly just as viable as North York Centre's corridor for redevelopment. The other issue was zoning; North York lost control of their zoning policies and rezoning Sheppard for high density was less of a priority for the city.

The transfer there really isn't a burden. It often takes less time to get to Leslie (~8 minutes from getting off a line 1 train) than it does getting to finch due to train traffic and train turnback limitations (I've been stuck on trains for half an hour because of that, and normally the trip is 15 minutes during peak hours). Given the current situation on Line 1, I'd argue anything along Sheppard is preferable to Finch Station from a transportation perspective.

One final issue is the walkability of Sheppard; neither North York nor Toronto rebuilt Sheppard avenue along the subway corridor to support dense walkable environments. With no master plan, the corridor is less desirable to developers these days.
 

Bureaucromancer

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The lack of a Willowdale station really says everything about how serious the city was in densifying Sheppard at the time. In every urban structure and development sense it would have been far more useful than Bessarion.
 
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syn

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They weren't actually favoring the downtown core at the time, quite the opposite. North York Centre was built because people saw it as a way to get away from the crowded downtown core. Once Sheppard was built, development didn't move back Downtown, it moved to Eglinton Yonge, Davisville, and along Line 2. It would take another 5-10 years for developers to begin redeveloping mass areas of Downtown.

That isn't true at all.

Downtown growth has outstripped these areas for decades, and by a very wide margin.

Planners already knew this is how things would unfold when Sheppard was selected as the line to build.

One final issue is the walkability of Sheppard; neither North York nor Toronto rebuilt Sheppard avenue along the subway corridor to support dense walkable environments. With no master plan, the corridor is less desirable to developers these days.

Why would they be rebuilt? They're not dense, walkable environments. Almost the entire line runs through suburban, single family home neighbourhoods and park land.

There was no way that was ever going to change.

That's why the line was a foolish choice from the start.
 

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